Wild Cards

Okay so I had a big ass thing typed up outlining why I think WCs should be considered for re-introducing and the page refreshed D;

The general gist, from my somewhat expertise in the gym league:

• Promotes balance
• Prevents people from beating a gym by having certain Pokemon and not due to strategy or wit
• In the case of Bug and Fighting, simple adjustments make a world of difference
• Gym tournament where everyone has a chance
• People would not be discouraged from owning a gym because of how the type is perceived
• Allowing gyms to have Megas that have type changes is already allowed in the case where a Pokemon changes its original type, but not when it gains a new type. In certain situations, this provides a huge advantage, and it's not fair to remove that advantage - let's just apply to both ends.
• More options cannot be understated
• I firmly believe that with a standard list (that people can petition to change), and just one WC per gym, this would be a great addition.

Here is a brief list that could definitey be changed, but seems to really help specific gyms and create a more even playing field:

Bug: Flygon, Drapion, Gliscor
Dark: Gyarados
Dragon: Charizard, Lapras, Ampharos, Tyranitar
Electric: Volbeat, Porygon-Z
Fairy: Altaria, Audino
Fire: Solrock
Fighting: Electivire, Lopunny, Bisharp
Flying: Scizor
Ghost: Marowak
Grass: Sudowoodo
Ground: Tyranitar, Aggron, Cradily, Probopass
Ice: Slowbro
Normal: Azumarill
Poison: Eelektross
Psychic: Gengar
Rock: Sandslash, Dugtrio, Steelix, Claydol, Golurk
Steel: Electrode
Water: Masquerain, Stunfisk


Please don't just shoot this down, I think with a bit of fine-tuning it could really help make more balanced and fun gym system! Each of the WCs I said

Current Approved List:

Spoiler

Normal: Clefable, Granbull - Used to be Normal type, maintain that same moveset

Grass: Sudowoodo, Florges - Clearly plants

Fire: Salamence - Several Dex entries reference it flying around shooting flames, learns several Fire moves
Solrock - Solar-powered, takes a sun-like shape, several Fire moves

Water: Dragalge, Stunfisk, Masquerain - All aquatic Pokemon, Masquerain evolves from a Water type

Electric: Klinklang, Probopass - Both learn a huge range of Electric moves
Porygon-Z, Porygon2 - Digital Pokemon, learn Electric moves

Ice: Empoleon - Penguin
Slowbro - Lorelli uses one, evolves because Shellder (an Ice type) bites it. Lives in same place as Ice Pokemon

Fighting: Electivire, Bisharp, Kangaskhan, Pinsir - All are well known for their physical fighting abilities

Poison: Gliscor - Scorpion, Poison Heal
Breloom - Spores, Poison Heal
Parasect - Poisonous Mushroom/Spores
Accelgor - Learns several Poison moves, ninja-like

Ground: Tyranitar - Evolves from a Ground type, sandstorm ability
Stoutland - Weak as fuck case and we want a better option

Flying: Volcarona, Flygon, Venomoth, Beedrill, Dustox - They all fly, have wings, get Flying moves.

Psychic: Venomoth - I think Sabrina used one, learns Psychic moves
Ninetales, Golduck - Both display Psychic abilities and energy manipluation
Darmanitan (Zen Mode only) - Becomes Psychic with ability

Bug: Flygon, Kabutops, Gliscor, Drapion - All bear a resemblance to insectoid creatures and learn Bug moves

Rock: Camerupt, Torkoal - Both closely related to rocks/magma
Steelix - Evolves from a Rock type, basically steel-coated rocks
Sandslash - So many arguments made for it in this thread, rock hard hide, rock pattern etc

Dragon: Charizard, Gyarados - Everyone knows these are Dragon wildcards

Ghost: Ninetales - Nine-tailed fox curse
Rotom Forms - Rotom is a ghost type, forms used to be ghosts

Steel: Electrode - Pokeballs are metal, kinda like a grenade, learns steel moves
Golurk - Automaton suit of armour, learns steel moves

Dark: Dusknoir, Dusclops - Closely related to darkness and night
Arbok - Well known for its use with evil (Team Rocket), patterns designed to instil fear
Gothitelle - Gothic, learns several dark type moves

Fairy: Audino - Very similar to other Fairies, gains type as Mega
Blissey, Chansey - Similar to Clefable which became a Fairy
Phione - Seems like one I dunno

These additional Pokemon which gain the type through Mega Evolution are also acceptable, but MUST be used with a Megastone which you must own.
Pokemon which are in the list above and gain the type through Mega Evolution (Charizard-Dragon and Audino-Fairy) are not bound by this requirement.

Fighting: Lopunny
Flying: Pinsir
Dragon: Ampharos, Sceptile
Dark: Gyarados
Fairy: Altaria

 

I gotta be honest, there are a LOT of areas where I 100% disagree with your list.

Bug - Agreed
Dark - Mega is dark
Dragon - I still insist that Tyranitar is a dinosaur, not a dragon. Ampharos is the Mega thing I guess.
Electric - Agreed
Fairy - Eh, I guess
Fire - SHIT AS ALWAYS I WANT A SALAMENCE but nevermind
Fighting - Lopunny? Maaaaybe. Others I can understand
Flying - Eh
Ghost - I assume this references the dead-mother-Marowak thing, but pretty weak relation overall
Grass - loltree
Ground - Really not seeing the logic here. Tyranitar evolves from one. The others confuse me
Ice - Cause Lorelli had one?
Normal - Eh
Poison - Not sure of the logic here
Psychic - Never understood why Gengar was allowed here
Rock - Same as ground, I have no idea what the logic is. Steelix evolves from one
Steel - I guess I see the logic here
Water - Sure I guess

Not saying all that to shut it down, but this was my biggest issue with the old system. Debating and trying to make a weak case for Pokemon the give you a HUGE benefit even though they don't REALLY relate to the type that well.

Even if we use a standard list, I still don't want to see those barely-related game changers in there.

 

This was like a really pre-emptive list, so it should probably be changed a lot tbh. I was more scouting for people supporting WC system than a list of the only possible WC kinda thing.

For Dragon, Lapras and Tyranitar are a bit iffy honestly, but I put them in just because they were widely accepted before. Charizard and Ampharos would work too probably.

Fire has nothing, I'm sorry lol

Bisharp and Electivire fit the Fighting theme definitely, and Lopunny has the Mega thing going. I think most would prefer Electivire anyway since Flying types really hurt, but Bisharp has some use for Fairy and Psychic and Lopunny is more well-rounded.

Yeah, Marowak was pretty weak. Nothing really comes to mind for Ghost tbh unless the dark/ghost overlap thing happens which I disagree with tbh

The Ground one is kinda tough to call. I know Cradily and Tyranitar were always allowed since they fit the theme somewhat and had quite a lot of use for the gyms. Aggron and Probopass just seem like Ground types to me, Aggron has the whole "heavy, part-rock" thing going and movepool, while Probopass got the magnetic thing going on.

Slowbro was mainly cause of Lorelei and where you can find it in the games. It really helps Ice with the whole Fire/Fighting/Steel dilemma while still being wrecked by Scizor, Bisharp, etc. This one would be pretty weak though tbh

Eelektross is kind of an odd one but when you look into it fits quite well. It gets 4 poison type moves level up out of 12 total (only 3 of which are electric), has the whole leech thing going for it, and I've seen it said a lot by people on forums that it resembles a Poison/Electric type a good bit. Might be a stretch but always how I saw it

Gengar was in Sabrina's gym lineup in one of the games iirc. Being weak to Dark and Ghost probably would prevent it being OP but this one is pretty mild. Probably others that would make a better WC, especially because of Mega Gengar

Think most of those were accepted before. Dugtrio and Claydol are literally a rock (I think), while Sandslash always seemed Rock/Ground, Steelix is made up of Steel-clad rocks afaik. Golurk probably not so fitting

 

I kind of like the idea of WCs (as long as they're not ridiculous); I could see Dragalge being a WC for a water gym btw.

 

Tbh, I'd agree for this list just for the sake of having Mega Altaria/Mega Audino in my pushover gym... that'd be awesome.

 

Overall, I like the idea of Wild Cards and would like to see them re-introduced, but...
a) Definitely not the same way as last time. Like Monbrey said, it was wayyy too easy to get WCs.
b) A balance needs to be found. There shouldn't be types without WCs, and types that only have access to crap ones like Sudowoodo for Grass. There needs to be at least a few good WCs for every type, or it pretty much defeats the purpose.

For starters, though, I do support the idea that all Pokemon that Mega Evolve into a new type should be allowed in the Gym of that type. Also Darmanitan in Psychic, (no bias, I swear!) and Castform in Water, Fire, and Ice (lol who needs it anyway).

 

While I would like all types to get good WCs, that really pushes the limits I think. Fire for instance just doesn't have much going for it. Salamence is way too far of a stretch and that's like the closest thing. Solrock is a perfect fit and may have some use, but probably not lol

Sudowoodo in Grass is not as bad as you think, resisting Poison, Fire, Flying and being neutral to Ice, while hitting three of those four super effectively. I think it's surprisingly viable since its stats and movepool aren't so bad.

Also from AIM:

Psychic: Venomoth, Darmanitan, Golduck
Water: Dragalge

 

I actually agree with this lol. If we were still in a situation where Dragonite got to be a water wildcard, I'd argue like hell that Salamence is equally deserving to be in Fire. But otherwise yeah, I don't think it should be a wildcard.
It also really wouldn't provide any extra coverage that Charizard-X can't deal with better anyway. Fire is actually a pretty good type - there are some major challenges but none anywhere near as bad as a Crobat/Talonflame in Fighting.

I just complain as a Fire leader because Solrock sucks as Head Ref making an overall decision I completely agree

If we start suggesting that all types need to have a good wildcard, I think that's actually worse for the balance. IF we're not going to do it based solely on type-similarity and allow some small exceptions for Pokemon that really benefit the type, then we need to look carefully at what does/doesn't need that help. Water and Flying for example really don't need that help. Fire honestly doesn't either.

 

I agree completely whatisthis

I think we should strive for an overall type balance, rather than a WC balance - an important distinction to make. All the average gyms, and the kinda poor ones (Bug and Fighting definitely, not sure if there is another?) should all have at least one option if a fitting one exists, while more lee-way can be given to Bug and Fighting and any other that really can't handle certain threats. Water and Flying should still be given options provided they're fitting imo, but not necessarily favourable ones, more situational.

Here's a revised list:

Bug: Flygon, Drapion, Gliscor
Dark: Gyarados
Dragon: Charizard, Lapras (?), Ampharos
Electric: Volbeat, Porygon-Z
Fairy: Altaria, Audino
Fire: Solrock
Fighting: Electivire, Lopunny, Bisharp
Flying: Scizor (?), Volcarona (?), Dustox (?)
Ghost: Is Ninetails worth considering? The PMD series really pushed the whole Ninetails is a cursed ghost spirit thing, but idk!
Grass: Sudowoodo
Ground: Tyranitar (?)
Ice: Slowbro (?)
Normal: Azumarill
Poison: Eelektross (?)
Psychic: Venomoth, Golduck, Darmanitan
Rock: I think Steelix should definitely be one, but I'd also argue for Sandslash and others possibly
Steel: Electrode
Water: Masquerain, Stunfisk, Dragalge


Input is really appreciated here, especially criticism lol

 

lol @ Sudowoodo

Florges would be a better fit.

 

Yeah, I remember having some reasons why Ninetales would be somewhat a Ghost WC. I think it's the only non-ghost to get 1 or 2 Ghost moves level up, the PMD thing, I think the anime had a Ninetales pretend to be a dead woman who befriended Brock or something?

 

I guess I'll add ones I could see that weren't already mentioned

Bug: Lumineon
Dark: Arbok, Crobat, Gothitelle, Huntail
Dragon: Sceptile, Feraligatr, Archeops, Aggron, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Milotic, Yanmega(?)
Electric: Klinklang, Probopass
Fairy: Delcatty, Chansey, Blissey, Alomomola, Luvdisc, Illumise, Milotic, Lumineon, Vivillon
Fire: Castform, Sunflora, Cherrim
Fighting: Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Staraptor
Flying: Beedrill, Flygon, Venomoth (doesn't really need any though)
Ghost: Ninetales isn't really a good fit imo, but I can't think of much else. Maybe Ariados?
Grass: Florges
Ground: Dunsparce
Ice: Castform
Normal: Clefable, Togekiss, Granbull
Poison: Accelgor, Seadra, Breloom (?)
Psychic: Noctowl, Mismagius, Gorebyss
Rock: I dont really see Sandslash but eh. Maybe Torkoal, Conkeldurr or Avalugg though.
Steel: Electrode doesn't really fit either to me lol
Water: Cradily, Eelektross, Castform, Malamar (again, really doesn't need any)

 

Okay, we should decide if like competitive balance is the point of the wildcard. If we end up giving bad gyms bad wildcards and good gyms good wildcards then it will make wildcards seem dumb again.

Not to maybe coutner that note but, Pinsir hasn't been mentioned for flying though it picks flying up in its mega evolution

 

For discussions sake, lets leave Pokemon who gain type by Mega-Evolution out of it by now - that list can be compiled based purely by fact later.

Fire legit has always had the worst WC selection, why Saying it has none would be nicer than offering a fkn Solrock.

If we go ahead and compile a list, we'd need to clarify what direction we want to go.

Swifty, your list seems to suggest a much wider variety of Pokemon. Loosen the type-relation a little to allow a larger list of wildcard options, but none of them offer any particularly large benefit.
Syn, your list is a little tighter on restrictions and seems to focus a little more on those than benefit the weaker types.

Or honestly, option C - still no wildcards is to be considered

 

Oh, I was offering my list in addition to Syn's, not instead of. But yeah I pretty much just included everything that seemed like it made sense in the context of that type. Some things will not be useful some will. I just think it would be good to have a Master List that covers all the bases. That way we don't get any dumb outlying suggestions. I think WCs should be based more on what makes sense, not what benefits the gym the most. When you say you want WCs just for balance, I say that yes, I understand that, and WCs should exist with that reasoning, BUT Gyms are supposed to have a degree of imbalance to them. That's the point; that's the challenge. You only get 1 type, and if you don't think you can defend your gym well enough with the Pokemon that type offers, then don't apply for that type.

tl;dr My main point is that WCs should not exist to balance Gyms with their challengers. If some of them happen to do that, great. If there's no other point than that, then I don't think they should exist.

 

I'm in agreement with the line of thinking that if we allow Wildcards, they should be thematically appropriate. Allowing gym leaders to use Pokemon that don't make any sense with their typing is both weird and goes against the idea of gyms having a theme.

Gyms are inherently a challenge to defend. That's part of the idea. Adding Pokemon simply to give them less of a type disadvantage is kind of going against what the gym system is.

 

If nothing else comes out of this, I would kinda like to see Mega Evolutions that have a type change, like Gyarados, be allowed in applicable gyms. There should probably be some sort of mandate like the Pokemon has to Mega Evolve or something, but I'll leave that up to someone else. I'd just like to see them be able to be used in gyms (by the leader, not by the challenger).

As another side note, I do remember being told Venomoth was allowed as a wild card for Saffron back when I had it; that's already been mentioned. I also remember being told that if I wanted to use Darmanitan in Saffron, it had to have Zen Mode. I never actually put that into action when I had Saffron, but just passing along what I was told. Not sure if it'll affect anything here, but I'll say it anyways.

Other than that, I don't really care if wild cards are added to gyms again or not. I don't think it'll help me much as a Dark type leader, especially since my only options are (Mega) Gyarados, Arbok, Crobat, Gothitelle, & Huntail; the latter four I can't really see a Dark type resemblance, but maybe it's just me. I can't really throw in anything that hasn't already been said, tbh, and I can't really think of any wild cards for Dark (or any other gym) that wouldn't sound really stupid like Noctowl for Psychic. I'll just support whatever is decided & live with it. I can see both sides of the argument, and I'm fine with whatever's decided in the end.

 

Hey how about we let Blaziken be a flying wc again!!!

I'm all for tightening up the list. Quite a few were a stretch, more for balance sake than being directly related to the type. Say if we dropped Slowbro for Ice among others, I feel like the overall imbalance would be far less than it is now, with Bug and Fighting becoming actually viable, leaving every gym viable and somewhat equal. How tight we want to regulate it has to be decided, and then consistency with all types should be perfect.

Ideally for me it would be to allow the types that gain a mega (Gyarados for Dark, Lopunny for Fighting, etc.) and a smallish pool of fitting Pokemon to give some more options and viability while still sticking to the type's theme.

 

I will preface my post with apologies if I misinterpret something or if I'm running off of outdated knowledge.

With that taken care of, I feel like the presence of Wild Cards needs to be defined by the intentions of the Gym system. Back when URPG first came to BMG and there was the Dojos and etc, it was generally seen that Gyms were hard to -defeat-. They were (relatively) easy hold as the Leader got to choose their battlefield and their lineup and the challengers had to bring their A-game to down a Leader.

At some point in time, this system changed. Now, it is a challenge to -defend- the Gym, instead of defeat it. It's this swap that made me leave the Gym system, and if we're looking at bringing back Wild Cards, it's this change that we need to keep in mind.

I'd like to put it out there that Wild Cards shouldn't be some measure of "equalising" types. Don't give WCs to just Bug and Fighting and Ground because they're generally seen to be harder to defend. That said, there also shouldn't be a push to equalise WCs amongst types. It's through random luck of game design that Bug/Fighting/Ground are bad types to defend, so it's also random luck of game design that there are so few acceptable Psychic/Electric/Ice WCs. Each type has positives and negatives, and if one of Ice's negatives is that they have no viable WCs, so be it.

tl;dr The inclusion of Wild Cards should depend on whether Gyms are harder to beat or to hold. Furthermore, "Wild Card equality" shouldn't be a thing.

End note: I am in favour of whatever decision gives me back my god-damn Electivire

 

You worded that much better than I did, but yeah - which Wildcards we decide to allow should be based on what we intend to achieve by doing so.

Pretty sure Electivire will be on that list either way.