Wild Cards

replace stoutland with cacturne it fits the same as stoutland and then some

lives in desert
bleeds sand
sand abilities
is a cactus

 

Sorry, meant to edit with a more constructive post and then computer died.

I think arguing about the "biggest problem" faced by a gym devolves too much into personal opinion, as there's no real quantitative way to tell that I'm aware of. Ie, Dark struggles a lot against Scrafty, and Gengar doesn't help against that, so does it become less OP? (the answer should be no lol)

I left in the list of WC's from the most recent list of propsed WC's and edited in the weaknesses they'd cover in their respective gyms. Probably messed up the type chart somewhere.

Normal: Clefable (Fighting (all type weaknesses)), Granbull (Fighting (all type weaknesses))
Grass: Sudowoodo (Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison), Florges (Bug)
Fire: Salamence (Water, Ground), Solrock (Ground)
Water: Dragalge (Electric and Grass (all type weaknesses), Stunfisk (Electric), Masquerain (Grass)
Electric: Klinklang, Porygon-Z, Porygon2, Probopass
Ice: Empoleon (Steel), Samurott (Fire, Steel)
Fighting: Electivire (Flying), Bisharp (Flying, Psychic)
Poison: Gliscor (Ground), Breloom (Ground), Parasect (Ground), Accelgor (Ground)
Ground: Tyranitar (okay no but having another sandstormer that isn't hippo is great), Stoutland
Flying: Volcarona (Ice), Flygon (Electric, Rock)
Psychic: Venomoth (Bug), Ninetales (Bug), Darmanitan (Zen Mode only) (Bug)
Bug: Flygon (Rock), Kabutops (Flying, Fire, also swift swim monster), Gliscor (Rock) , Drapion
Rock: Torkoal (Grass), Steelix (Steel), Camerupt (Steel)
Dark: Dusknoir (Fighting, Bug), Arbok (Fighting, Bug, Fairy!), Gothitelle (Fighting)
Fairy: Phione (lol phione)(Also Steel)

What I'm trying to say is that a lot of WC's resist a type that their gym is weak to, and quantifying which type is "more" or "less" of a threat is kind of silly. Gengar for Dark is a really extreme example and helps a looooooot, but it's about on par as Dragalge for Water, Mence for Fire, or any of the Fairies for Normal when it comes to coverage.

A lot of this devolves into whether or not WC's focus on diversifying type by:
=helping the gym cover its weaknesses
OR
=matching the gym's type better

Because right now I'm hearing arguments on both sides for and against both sides and it's kind of becoming a muddy area. Could we clarify this?

 

Desert is legit only a subset of Ground, but it fits the type better than Stoutland definitely

Mence in Fire is nowhere near as bad as Gengar in Dark.

Also, after a good bit of discussion I think the WCs Rock has are fine honestly. Camerupt provides quite a bit of use from what I can see. Regarding the Speed, both Ice and Fairy are slower overall, and possibly the same with Steel and Ground. And even if Rock was the slowest by a landslide (heh), that's an attribute of the type. Rock types have great defense and low speed on average, while Electric types have low defense and great speed on average. Part of the flaws that come with the type honestly.

With Camerupt and the rest of the lineup, I think Rock becomes up there with the majority of the types with the new WCs. It might not get the best WC, but they're still quite viable and worth a slot, making the type overall quite balanced from what I can tell.

 

Okay, you guys seem to be working on Rock so I'm just gonna move on.

Can I ask why Slowbro was nixed for Ice? Among being attached to an Ice Pokemon (shellder), it also is found in the ice place in RBY, and is used by Ice E4. It's also helpful for a type boost.

Also Ampharos for Steel because of Olivine? idk

EDIT: Pretty much totally disagree hat Camerupt is viable. It's pretty worthless in my opinion. All of its stats are extremely under par and also, if we're talking about a characteristic stat spread, Camerupt has terrible Defense so doesn't even match there.

Also, I'd like to see the discussion about how Camerupt is viable, since you mentioned there was a good bit of it

 

Sorry to spam thread, but in case the edits don't go through/people don't read because Syn posted on top:

A lot of the anti-Gengar concern is because of the trapping of Mega-Gengar. Somewhat unrelated tangent in that the Pokemon that gain their Mega's type must hold their Mega Stone is up in the air for a potential clause and Darmanitan being forced to Zen Mode; perhaps there could be a similar clause saying that Gengar/WC's in general must not hold their Mega Stone?

Reaaaallly arbitrary and contrived rule, but that might help with the balance concerns.

seriously don't see why arbok is dark still sorry D:

 

100% perfect demonstration by everyone of why wildcards were removed.

 

The arguments made for Cacturne really support it (weakly) for Rock; not Ground. (Sandstorm itself is a rock-type move; it only boosts the SpDef for Rock types etc.) I don't htink Rock needs any more Wild Cards that aren't competitively viable options. The only reason Rock is still under analysis is because it (arguably) still lacks a Wild Card to help it. While the same argument can be made for Ground, Cacturne ain't the answer, sorry. (Neither is Stoutland, but let's keep looking).

Slowbro could be added back to Ice out of desperation ?_? I don't think it fits but again it needs something. Other people can look into how viable Emp is there.

And, finally, Gengar issue. Gengar thematically fits, no question there. So we don't need to discuss that anymore. However, the question is of balance. I personally don't think it's a good idea to just say "Gengar can't Mega" because really that'd be a blanket rule for all gyms to follow that would really only apply to Gengar which is kind of silly. I personally think Mega Gengar (let's be real, regular Gengar is not too much of a balance issue) wouldn't throw Dark too far into OP land. Gothitelle is already being allowed and is a Shadow Tag Trapper, and Mega Kangaskhan is being allowed in tandem with Blaziken so the whole nubfrog + Mega Gengar argument has already had a precedent set against it. Now, I'm NOT saying that the opinion of it being imbalanced is unfounded; there is definitely going to be a sharp edge that it provides with type, stats AND ability. I just think that, based on other things we allowed, Mega Gengar isn't too far-fetched of an option. I'm still kind of on the fence about it, though. =/

Why is it so hard to see Arbok as Dark lol. It's based on instilling fear into other beings and just generally associated with evil.

EDIT: I also agree with Monbrey; this is a lot of talking in circles. I hate to have to be the one to say this but there is not a single doubt in my mind that the final list will disappoint and anger people. This is because WCs are almost entirely opinion based! The only thing that isn't opinion is the issue of balance.

 

Current opinions on changes:

Rock: +Sandslash, criteria already discussed. Possibly also Donphan as I feel it meets very similar criteria. Further discussion on Mamoswine has swung me against it, too mammalian and not really rock-like
Ice: +Slowbro, -Samurott, I can't imagine it making Ice unbalanced or anything, so it's fine by me

Not seeing enough of a case for removing Parasect from Poison. I get that not all mushrooms are poisonous... but Parasect's is according to dex entries etc.

Ampharos in Steel is a no from me unless there's a good case for it.

Stoutland is a shit wildcard for Ground, not sure Cacturne is any better. As if you're not gonna use Tyranitar anyway. Any other options?

Really, really undecided on Gengar for Dark. I do not see it as being on par with the other wildcards.
Salamence shares a key type weakness with Fire (Rock).
Besides Special Defence, Dragalge has some very mediocre stats, especially its 187 speed.
Togekiss was decided against for Normal because of it's 4x resistance to Fighting - our decision against Gengar was based on a similar mindset.

Please also bear in mind that Mega-Gyarados would also be an option in Dark gyms

 

Since we're reaching, all arguments for Ground are going to be flimsy. Here are some things that could be Ground if you squint:

-Tauros (Fissure, EQ, Bulldoze....brown....runs and kicks up dust)
-Furret (lives in burrows)
-Dunsparce (Drill on its Tail gets Drill Run I think didn't check; lives in burrows)
-Goodra (literally mud lol idk)

These all suck. Of them I think Dunsparce has the best case. Maybe we're just better off leaving it with just Tyranitar. If you like one of these and can argue better for it, be my guest and good frigging luck lol.

 

You know what? I'm going to be yelled at for this, but seeing as I almost never battle these days, I don't care. Purely putting this out there as a suggestion, and also because work is very boring.

Maybe the shittier gyms should be allowed two Wild Cards.

There, I said it. Tell me I'm an idiot now.

Monbrey, you don't need to. You will anyway, though.

 

Idiot

 

Can we get a current list of wildcards and their reasoning behind allowing them so we roughly know what kind of criteria improvements/future additions need, I know they were roughly talked about in the initial lists and explanations are scattered in different posts but a singular more refined place would be cool.

also I imagine the final end-all list will require explanations to avoid newer people continuously asking why things were allowed down the line

 

Did this with the list in the first post

 

Dare I suggest Haunter for Dark, or is trying to get something that actually matches the type really well a moot case at this point, haha.

 

Enough of your lip missy.

If you really want Haunter, fine, though I feel like this is really just a semi-sarcastic attempt to lead into "Why not Gengar then?"

I originally supported Gengar as a Dark wildcard, but the majority was against it in the discussion we had. Overall, we're still really very mixed on the decision, and haven't finalized it.

 

Shellder is actually pure water lol

 

Honest, cap'n, I think Gengar has an incredibly valid thematic case, but after talking to people about the balance aspect, I completely understand why having Gengar would be uncool competitively. I thought Haunter (same line, but worse stats, pivotal lack of that important speed aspect, and no trapping mega potential) would be a fair compromise, so I figured I'd suggest it.

Unless "still divided on Gengar" turns into "you can have your cake and eat it too have Gengar", in which case, ignore me ^^

 

Yeah, I just wanted to emphasize the fact that a lot of Pokemon that fit very well thematically were scrapped because of balance. (Togekiss for Normal, Eelektross for Water, Volbeat for Electric etc.)

Agreed with Monbrey, though, Haunter is totally fine in my book.

 

what if we outsource wildcardd suggestions.

like lets post a thread in pokemon video games general titled "what type should they have been" or something like that.

use their posts and reasoning and get wildcards.

i may have alcohol
is urpg ok with this

 

I'm sure there's already a thread like that somewhere, in fact I posted in it at one point. I can't remember if it's in Video Games or General Discussion.