Wild Cards

Not to play for my own kind here, but can Rock not get totally screwed?

Seems like people have shut down every WC that isn't Steelix. I don't understand how Tyranitar is more Ground type than like Sandslash/Dugtrio/Claydol/Camerupt are Rock. I think the two types are pretty overlapping in theme!

 

I could definitely see Camerupt for Rock, but I just don't see the other 3. Dugtrio and Sandslash are both mammals and rock has only 1 (arguably 2) line that is mammalian, and that line is also part Ground anyway (Rhyhorn). Otherwise, Rock Pokemon are based on inorganic matter, fish, reptiles, and mollusks. Claydol is a doll made of clay lol. Clay makes me think ground, not rock. There is also not a single Rock-type Pokemon that is based on clay.

However, I think you could make a case for Sableye or Starmie! ;o

 

Tyranitar has the "evolved from a Ground type" card to play. Steelix can play that card for Rock - the others can't.

 

The design on Sandshrew's body is all sandstone! Plus most rock types are based off of animals with hard shells, which Sandslash has in the form of the dark quills on its back. I always assumed those quills were actually rocks, but I guess they could just be hardened hide or something.

This is a quote from the first line of the Wikipedia page on clay:

"Clay is a fine-grained natural rock or soil material that combines one or more clay minerals with traces of metal oxides and organic matter."

But also yea! Sabeleye and Starmie are about as rock as Aurorus ( all 3 have small gems on them??)

 

I'm not directing this at you specifically, but this is exactly the sort of discussion I really, REALLY hated with the wildcard system.

I can see the case to be made for Starmie and Sableye, but in my opinion it's a pretty weak one.
They have gems.
This is where it starts to feel like a forced case made to get a good Pokemon and not a Pokemon that happens to have a strong similarity.

The case for Sandslash I can appreciate a little more - hard, sandstone spikes on it's back

 

Yea, actually as I was writing that post it felt really silly and I couldn't help but think that it was detracting from the point of the thread. However, I decided to post it only because I think it's better to get all of this discussion out of the way now, make a definitive list of what wildcards can be used, and never have this discussion again (or not until next gen!!). I honestly think we should only have 1, maybe 2 Pokemon / type that are acceptable wildcards. We should also probably make a list of characteristics we want out of our wildcards (like type similarity/movepool/evo requirements/etc.)

Side Note:I would be plenty content with Sandslash and really wasn't being too serious about Starmie / Sableye.

 

Starmie or Sableye would be really big stretches imo (moreso than Slowbro in Ice I think lol), but Sandslash actually really does fit the type imo. Anyway, I think Smo has a good idea of making clear distinctions on what exactly determines a Wild Card. I would say type similarity (physology of pokemon, where you find it maybe, dex entries, etc.), movepool (mainly level up but the others can help too), other facts that are relevant, and then lower down would be that Pokemon's representation in the type from the games.

Here's an example of Volbeat for Electric because I know a bit about it:

Similarity: firefly with the whole "light" thing going ala Ampharos

Movepool: Gets a ton of Electric moves, particularly by TM (think it might get all Electric type TMs but icr)

Other: NintendoMag the official Nintendo magazine mistook Volbeat for the first Bug/Electric type when RSE first came out since the resemblence was so strong

Representation: Trainer used it in Mauville Gym in RSE

That kind of way of analysing makes it very clear what should/shouldn't be allowed and is pretty effective. Maybe we could do them all individually here and people could chip in? Or mods can decide, either works really.

 

Salamence Physiology:
It's a dragon, not hard to link a dragon with Fire

Salamence Habitat:
According to Bulbapedia, "rough terrain"
Also found here: Ninetales, Rapidash, Arcanine, Typhlosion, Blaziken, Entei, Magcargo, Camerupt, Magmar, Torkoal, Charizard, Houndoom, Flareon, Moltres, Ho-oh.... okay, so maybe it's just every Fire type in this terrain.

Bagon is found in Meteor Falls, same place as Solrock which is considered a valid wildcard.

Salamence Dex entries:
- Sapphire: By evolving into Salamence, this Pokémon finally realizes its long-held dream of growing wings. To express its joy, it flies and wheels all over the sky while spouting flames from its mouth.
- FireRed/LeafGreen: It becomes uncontrollable if enraged. It destroys everything with shredding claws and fire.
- HeartGold/SoulSilver: It's uncontrollable if enraged. It flies around spouting flames and scorching fields and mountains.
- X, Y and Alpha Sapphire are variations similar to the above

Salamence movepool:
Learns Fire Fang, Ember and Flamethrower by level
Learns Sunny Day, Fire Blast and Incinerate by TM
Learns Heat Wave by Move Tutor

Lets compare this to Solrock:

Solrock is a sun-Pokemon, absorbs solar energy. Arguably more linked to Grass (Solarbeam, Chlorophyll) than Fire, though Fire does benefit from Sunlight.
No Pokedex entries mention Fire at all
Only one level up Fire move, Fire Spin
Sunny Day, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Incinerate, Will-o-Wisp by TM
Heat Wave by MT

My point here isn't to get a Salamence, it's to show how strong a case can be made for a Pokemon that we probably shouldn't allow in comparison to one that has always been allowed because it's useless lol
Though I certainly wouldn't complain.

 

Ehhh on Steel. I don't how how Electrode would fit into the steel type

My ideas:

Dragonite to water

Tyranitar to Steel???

Salamence to Fire

Garchomp to Dark

Charizard to Dragon

Mewtwo to Fighting

Heliopotile to Fire

Sabeleye to Steel

Rhyperior to Steel


And that's pretty much it

 

bruh

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

 

Going to suggest Noivern for Dark because it's a bat, & bats are typically found in dark environments. It's not a hella strong argument, but I dunno, someone else may find better reasons than me. ;3

i also really want a noivern in my gym & i think that's a very good reason

EDIT: Also Noivern is based off of a gargoyle according to Bulbapedia, & gargoyles are dark-ish, so there's another point.

 

Mewtwo in Fighting sounds pretty God-damn sweet to me dude! Not even facetious!

This kind of discussion, while I can sympthatise with it, is not going to help us come to a decision on this issue. We need to pause the "let's make a list of valid Wild Cards" talk until we have a decision on why Wild Cards are being brought back. Is it to make Gyms that little bit easier to defend? Is it to make the Gyms more flavorful? Is it for shits and giggles?

Personally, I prefer seeing Gyms as hard nuts to crack, instead of a ledge that Leaders must balance precariously upon. It's this distinction, first and foremost, that we need to address before we move on to the possibility of re-including Wild Cards. If we keep the "challenge to defend" methodology, Wild Cards probably shouldn't be re-included, except perhaps for those types that are widely believed to be nearly impossible to defend.

 

I personally agree that gyms should be difficult to defeat, and as some people have said, there are some gyms right now that are just kind of screwed. Let's take a look at one I've had experience in, Dragon:

Dragon seems to be a very difficult gym because of the high concentration of strong Pokémon. But now, let's take a look at a couple of the threats it has to face:

Gardevoir/Mega Gardevoir: Gardevoir can Trace a number of good abilities if it decides not to Mega Evolve, and was honestly a challenge even before X/Y. Now it hits every single Pokémon in the gym SE, while outspeeding all except Flygon (which is tied), Salamence (which is tied unless it also megas), Garchomp (non-mega), and Noivern. It has access to Icy Wind, Moonblast, Draining Kiss, and Psychic, among other moves. As a Mega, it gains Pixilate which makes Hyper Voice even stronger Fairy STAB. Let's take a look at some calculations with Mega Gardevoir:

Garchomp: Icy Wind + Draining Kiss KOs and heals back quite a bit. Hyper Voice OHKOs if for some reason you don't want to do that. Garchomp does <60% with Iron Head.
Mega Garchomp: Assume you Mega at the right to outspeed it and Sand is up. Mega Gardevoir survives Sand Force Iron Head and still KOs back with Icy Wind + Draining Kiss, gaining back even more health from DK. Sand Force Iron Tail in Sand does OHKO, but that means you have to time it right, have Sand up, and hit a 75% accuracy move. Also you have to be using a Mega Garchomp and starting weather Sand. Also, Hyper Voice barely misses the OHKO, leaving only 3%.
Salamence: Icy Wind + Draining Kiss KOs this too, even if it heals a bit less. Hyper Voice OHKOs if they are willing to brave the speed tie. Iron Tail does <75%. That's still requiring it to hit.
Mega Salamence: Icy Wind + Draining Kiss yet again KOs. Hyper Voice still OHKOs if you can win that speed tie on the MEvo turn. If you try to DD on the Icy Wind and they predict it/you send first, they can also Encore that and either Calm Mind, Sub, Wish, Imprison, Defense Curl, do a ton to a switch in, etc. Still unable to KO with Iron Tail. Retaliate/Façade conditionally OHKO, but that can be played around, especially considering you speed tie if you mega evolve the turn you come in and they are already a mega, which is likely if you attempt to use Retaliate.
Noivern: Yet again Icy Wind + Draining Kiss KOs. Noivern doesn't really have the movepool to hit back, with Acrobatics not even doing 40%.
Kingdra in Rain: Draining Kiss does almost exactly the same damage as Waterfall. Therefore, even though Waterfall does 2HKO, Gardevoir can heal off and survive it, not to mention using Sunny Day/etc. first for the outspeed and weakened damage. Also, Hyper Voice OHKOs.
Dragalge: The only thing that actually can reasonably win 1v1. It still will take ≈87% from a Psyshock before having an 85% chance to OHKO with Gunk Shot. Don't forget that it's dead slow and will be left crippled for their next giant threat.
Dragonite: Icy Wind + Moonblast/Hyper Voice KOs here and prevents a DD, or Charge Beam + Hyper Voice KOs with or without rise.
Goodra: Hyper Voice + Draining Kiss KOs and Gardevoir outspeeds. Iron Tail only does 60%.
Hydreigon: Dies instantly to a faster Fairy. Draining Kiss barely misses the OHKO, just about anything else does OHKO.
Haxorus: Moonblast/Hyper Voice OHKO and it outspeeds.
Druddigon: Hyper Voice OHKOs and outspeeds by a ton.
Altaria: Hyper Voice OHKOs and outspeeds.
Mega Altaria: Hyper Voice OHKOs and outspeeds.
Flygon: Hyper Voice OHKOs with speed tie, while Iron Tail does only 60%. Additionally, Icy Wind + Draining Kiss KOs.
Tyrantrum: Hyper Voice OHKOs without Sandstorm and leaves 6 HP with. Head Smash only does about 77% back.

I'm not going to say it's as hard to deal with as something like Talonflame is Bug/Fighting/Grass, but it is certainly a Pokémon that singlehandedly will wreck a good part of your team. And how about some others? Mega Glalie (same speed as Mega Gardevoir) which can literally OHKO everything in the gym (if it is willing to use a couple Double-Edges for Multiscale Dragonite, Hydreigon, and Mega Altaria as well as a Blizzard for Tyrantrum).

How about some non-megas? Weavile still can sweep an entire lineup with just a Swords Dance (which, if played right, is not hard to get. It also outspeeds everything except Swift Swim Kingdra, who has trouble hitting it back. Att+2 Ice Punch OHKOs everything else except Tyrantrum, which Icicle Crash at +2 OHKOs. Knock Off (if Kingdra is holding something) + Ice Shard KOs Kingdra. This isn't even accounting for Weavile's held item, so it can use anything it wants (unless it needs a booster for an itemless Kingdra), including something to get off that Swords Dance.

Let's also not forget Cloyster. It has the bulk to be out of OHKO range by most things (even something like Dragonite's Thunder) and get off a Shell Smash. With a smart choice of held and/or timing, it likely has the chance to do so. After that, it can outspeed and OHKO everything but Kingdra.

Of course there's also Whimsicott. It can switch in on any Dragon move and force a switch with Encore, troll around with your entire team, easily U-turn out on a Dragalge into something to deal with that, and just Moonblast everything to oblivion when it's done trolling.

The list goes on. While none of these are strictly auto-wins, if a smart challenger has and uses something along those lines, it is a very uphill battle for the gym leader.

Also, on a slightly related note, is it possible to get a lineup expansion (especially if we get WCs added, meaning a lot of gyms will need to find space for it)?

Spoiler

A lot of these have already been mentioned, but here's some ideas for what I might include on the list:

Bug: Gliscor, Drapion, Flygon
Dark: Huntail (?)
Dragon: Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl (?) (obviously Ampharos and Sceptile have the MEvo thing, but if that's separate they don't belong here, unlike Charizard)
Electric: Porygon2, Porygon-Z
Fairy: Chansey, Blissey, Dunsparce, Audino, Delcatty, Milotic (?)
Fighting: Electivire, Golurk, Bisharp
Fire: Solrock, Salamence (?)
Flying: Scizor (?), Volcarona (?), Venomoth (?), Hydreigon (?), Beedrill (?), Dustox (?) (putting (?) with all of these because I might be a little biased, also because it's one of the ones which either has almost nothing or a ridiculous amount depending who you ask, not to mention general gym power level. Also don't forget Pinsir for MEvo things.)
Ghost: Ninetales (?)
Grass: Sudowoodo, Florges
Ground: Tyranitar (?)
Ice: Empoleon
Normal: Altaria (?), Clefable/other formerly Normals (?) (Honestly, Azumarill doesn't seem to fit more than Eeveelutions imo)
Poison: Gliscor
Psychic: Golduck, Gorebyss (?), Ninetales (?), Venomoth (?), Darmanitan (?)
Rock: Camerupt, Steelix, Conkeldurr (?)
Steel: Rhyperior (?)
Water: Eelektross, Stunfisk, Masquerain (?), Dragalge

 

Yea. I really think wildcards are just important for keeping a lot of the gyms actually defendable. As Ash gave an example of above, there are a lot of gyms that just have insurmountable threats. You're just shit out of luck against a lot of Pokemon. Honestly, with Wildcards there will still be Pokemon that can be too tough to overcome with 1 individual Pokemon, but at least your opponent can't just like spam you with one type and wreck your team without a lot of strategy.

PS Probopass 4 Electric

 

Definitely agreeing with Ash, except that I've been dealing with Crobat outspeeding literally -all- of my shit since Gen IV. Electivire was the only thing that could reliably bring it down. And it's not even just Crobat, there are plenty of fliers with more than 320 speed.

We're veering off topic again, though. Before we can argue about what Gyms deserve Wild Cards and what should be on the list, we need to determine why they are (potentially) being reconsidered. It seems to me that there are some varied potential options being looked at:

Option 1: Gyms are supposed to be hard to defend. Because of this, no Wild Cards. (current official stance)

Option 2: Gyms are supposed to be hard to defend. However, some are overly hard, and so we'll give out WCs based on difficulty defending.

Option 2.5: Gyms are supposed to be hard to defend. However, some are overly hard, and so we'll give out WCs based on difficulty defending. Second however, since some gyms get a WC, others might as well have one too.

Option 3: Gyms are supposed to be hard to defeat. In that vein, we should look at re-hauling the Gym system, including but not limited to: allowing each Gym a Wild Card (maybe even two depending on type), potentially increasing line-up limit (or removing it altogether), increasing the amount of battlefield options a Leader can have, etc.

 

I really don't see the argument for a line-up expansion at all, and it REALLY doesn't work in the same post as discussion about a Dragon gym

That may just be me not really having any other Fire types to use, though I really don't see many situations where there's going to be a good 13th+ Pokemon that HAS to be in your lineup. A line-up of 12 offers really good coverage.

However, I don't care for ANY discussion on this right now. Focus on Wildcards.

Despite being the one who removed them, I support Chainy's option 3 - ONLY if we produce a pre-determined list of acceptable Pokemon, NOT a system where random Pokemon may/may not get approved at random times.

 

But with WCs, they might well need that space!

Also, worth mentioning that the list of scary things I mentioned isn't even complete. While we're at it, check out some calculations Elysia did in the Mega Clause thread about how unbeatable some other things are in other gyms.

I am 100% in favor of having a single list of allowable WCs. I agree it should not be the way it was before with random approvals. Of course, we will need to make such a list.

 

Okay, NOW that there are multiple prominent Staff members in favour of the return of WCs, we can begin wrangling out a list.

I will be much quieter from here on out as I have less to add to the discussion. As an ex-Fighting Leader, I believe that Electivire and Bisharp are both good candidates for Wild Cards. Lopunny also is under the "count stuff if it Mega Evos into the type" clause.

I will seriously pay $20 to whoever convinces Monbrey to let me use my Mewtwo in a Fighting Gym.

 

$30 to leave me alone.

I'll compile a list from what has been suggested so far in a few hours unless someone else wants to before then. I'll probably also mark them with my opinion on how valid they are/how likely I am to allow them in a final list.

Following that, people are welcome to present arguments for or against any specific Pokemon. If a majority of Senior Refs/people with gym experience agree with a particular argument or assessment, I'll modify the list accordingly.

I'm going to say right now that there will be a fixed period during which we can discuss this. When the list is finalised, it's finalised and won't be changed again - at least not for some time. If your particular wildcard suggestion isn't agreed to, too bad.

I MAY consider opening discussions again at a later date, such as after a three or six month period.

 

Okay! I like making lists because for some warped odd reason I think it's fun so HERE WE GOOOOOOOOO

Spoiler

Normal

Spoiler

Clefable - former Normal type, used by Whitney, lots of Normal level-up moves.
Granbull - same as Clef, but I think it was used by a different leader in PWT or s/t.
Togekiss - same
*Azumarill - evolves from a Normal type
*Altaria - also evolves from Normal type; fluffy(?)

Grass

Spoiler

Sudowoodo - has that whole "Imma tree; loljk" thing going for it and gets Wood Hammer level up.
Florges - literally, why was this not a Grass-type in the first place ?_?

Fire

Spoiler

*Salamence - Monbrey already justified. Controversial because fire argument could be made for many Dragons and Salamence is a pseudo that would really make a Fire gym difficult.
Solrock - it's the freakin sun. It gets Fire Spin level up too.
*Castform - can be Fire type lol

**Water

Spoiler

Dragalge - aquatic; evolves from water type, gets water moves level up
Stunfisk - aquatic; learns water moves, based on a fish (flounder)
Masquerain - evolves from water type; gets water moves level up
*Eelektross - aquatic
Cradily - aquatic; learns water moves level up; gets Storm Drain as ability
*Armaldo - semi-aquatic; learns water moves level up; gets Swift Swim as ability
*Castform - can be water type lol
*Malamar - aquatic
*Goodra - evolves by Rain; learns water moves level up
*Dragonite - aquatic; learns water moves level up

Electric

Spoiler

Klinklang - gets Plus/Minus; electric moves are level up
Porygon2/Porygon-Z - get electric moves level up; infiltrate electric devices (ie. computers)
Probopass - compass leads to electromagnetic fields; learns electric moves level-up
Volbeat - Syn already justified

Ice

Spoiler

*Slowbro - Lorelei more like Lore-lies amirite
*Castform - can be ice type lol
Empoleon - 90 penguins

Fighting

Spoiler

Electivire - bipedal learns Brick Break idk Chainy wants
Bisharp - bipedal learns Brick Break will punch u in the face if u say no
*Kangaskhan - bipedal learns fighting moves level up and is famous for using some of them often (PuP, Seismic Toss, etc.)
Pinsir - bipedal used to know exclusively fighting and normal damaging moves lol; often juxtaposed to Heracross who is fighting type
*Staraptor - Close Combat, Final Gambit
Lopunny - Mega

Poison

Spoiler

*Eelektross - gets Poison moves level up and eels are poisonous? idk ask Syn!!
*Accelgor - gets poison moves level up and has that poisonous snail vibe thing going on again idk
Gliscor - Poison Heal and famous for poisoning things
Breloom - Poison Heal and has dex entries about poisoning things with its spores
*Parasect - has the poison spore thing going for it as well and often juxtaposed to Venomoth who is Poison
(some of these are a stretch because poison really didn't have much)

Ground

Spoiler

Tyranitar - evolves from ground
*Ninjask - evolves from ground and cicadas are born and raised underground
*Shedinja - " "
*Stoutland - gets sand abilities
(Same deal as Poison, struggling to find many)

**Flying

Spoiler

*Beedrill, Venomoth, Volbeat, Illumise, Dustox - bugs with wings and some flying moves (Heracross and Kricketune can fly but really just no)
Flygon - duh
*Whimsicott - gets windy moves level-up literally based on the wind as it can fit through cracks etc.
Volcarona self-explanitory
Scizor - evolves from flying
Pinsir - Mega

Psychic

Spoiler

everything
*Noctowl - gets Psychic moves level up; owls are often considered wise and have strong minds
Venomoth - Sabrina had one and it gets Psychic moves level up
Darmanitan - Can be Psychic type and gets Psychic moves
Mismagius - gets Psychic moves level-up; casts spells and tricks the mind
*Gorebyss - gets Psychic moves level-up
Golduck - learns Psychic moves level-up
Nintales - learns abundant Psychic moves

Bug

Spoiler

Gliscor - scorpion = bug
Drapion - scorpion = bug
*Lumineon - species = butterfly fish pokemon gets Silver Wind and Signal Beam
Kabutops - trilobite vibe gets bug moves
Flygon - Bug egg group; gets Bug moves

Rock

Spoiler

Camerupt - magma made of melted rock
Torkoal - coal is a rock; also contains magma
Steelix - basically just mde of rocks coated in steel
*Sandslash - spiky rocks on its back
*Claydol - clay is a rock(?)
*Sableye - Mega is almost more gem than Pokemon and follows Diancie precedent of being rock classified

Dragon

Spoiler

Feraligatr - reptilian; learns dragon moves
Charizard - Mega
Ampharos - Mega
Sceptile - Mega
Gyarados - Lance uses one; learns dragon moves level
Aerodactyl - Lance again
Archeops - Iris uses one; learns dragon moves by level
Lapras - Iris also uses; learns Dragon moves by level
Aggron - Iris again; reptilian; learns dragon moves
*Serperior - reptilian; learns Dragon moves

Ghost

Spoiler

*Ninetales - the whole PMD argument thing plus based on curses
*Cacturne - possessed cactus scarecrow thing seems pretty scary and ghost-like
(honestly can't think of more except mayyyyyyyyybe other Rotom forms since they used to be ghost but I think that's quite the stretch)

Steel

Spoiler

*Rhyperior - armor(?) ask Ash!
*Electrode - Pokeballs = metal(?) ask Syn!
*Blastoise - Cannons!
(same as ghost)

Dark

Spoiler

*Noivern, Crobat, Swoobat - bats that like the night life Noivern is a gargoyle apparently
Arbok - the evil pattern on its chest; gets dark moves level
*Gengar - hides in the dark based on shadows
*Huntail - gets dark moves level up kind of a parallel to Gorebyss who gets Psychic moves level up
*Mawile - found in dark caves; gets dark moves level up; deceiver pokemon
Gyarados - Mega
(most of these are iffy at best, but they're all that have been suggested and there isn't much to work with)

Fairy

Spoiler

Blissey - used by Nurse Joy for healing and crap
Almomola - Nursing Pokemon heals wounded pokemon it finds
*Delcatty - cutesy fairy thing
Altaria - mega
Audino - mega

I realize this is a very long list. That's because this is by no means the final list. This is just a compilation of all the somewhat sensible suggestions everyone has given. From here, we eliminate what doesn't work as much as the others until there's a small number in each type. I also realize the justifications are pretty terrible. I just wanted to make short ones for now. If needed, we can make longer ones for later. I honestly don't think anything listed here is ridiculous. These are not all my suggestions so don't get made at me!!!!

*means pretty controversial
**means the type doesn't need much help to begin with.