Too many Pokemon in the Pokemart?

I think it makes more sense to have an approximately fixed number of each type rather than an approximate fixed percentage. We don't really want to deal with there being 5 Dragon types (minimum allowed keeping pseudos, ≈38.5% of fully evolved non-legendary dragons) and 22 Water types (≈38.5% of fully evolved non-legendary Water types, I counted).

 

So most of what I just wrote was disagreement, but that was mostly just me responding to individual discussion.

Overall I think what you suggested is very well thought out, and you did a good job of balancing the number of Pokemon of each type without increasing the number too much, by using dual-types to cover multiple slots.

However I think that the intention to encourage people to use the other sections isn't very well represented in your proposal. Removing Pokemon from the Pokemart really doesn't effect older members much at all - we've already bought what we want, or are in jobs that allow us to set up story deals etc.

Newer members however gain a much BETTER selection for type specialization than they did before in most cases. The additional of Pokemon like Snorunt, Klink, Joltik, Aron and even Bunnelby, while not top-tier Pokemon on their own, really improve on those types. The ones that don't improve already have great type specialization available (eg Fire)

Members who don't want to specialize in a type, as you pointed out, can still obtain roughly the same 50% of an E4 lineup that they could already obtain anyway. So this doesn't really change at all either.

You've offered up a great Pokemart selection, but that kinda encourages people to use the Pokemart. So as strange as it sounds, I could very well support your proposed changes, even though I completely disagree with a lot of the arguments you've made. I feel like they contradict your suggestions.

I wouldn't support your changes for the reasons you want them made, but instead for my own reasons which disagree with yours completely! Hooray for conflict resolution.

I'm a moderator and overall valued member of the staff team, and have been for quite some time. I was the first person selected from BMG to be a staff member. I've helped the URPG expand to two new forums. I'm in charge of two sections, battling being the most active and generally successful section in the URPG. I never said the Art section was successful, I even made changes just the other day to improve on that. Although I'm head of the section I'm definitely not an artist, just a manager. That's why I have a good team of Curators - they honestly are my advisors in artistic matters.

I think I fit into this game just fine.

Yes and no. Like I mentioned earlier, I think it's a good Pokemart list, but that's because I disagreed with the removal of so many Pokemon.

What I question is whether or not its a better list for the they reasons they want it to be.

I do agree with this too. Equal numbers is probably a better option than equal percentages. But slightly larger number in the types that have more, as I mentioned earlier, allows the Pokemart to overall better represent the diversity available in a type.

Like Fire/Fighting, Fire/Fighting and Fire/Fighting.

 

@Ash K.; If you wish to check my percentages, please do not differentiate between pseudos and regular Pokemon. As well, would you please calculate a more reasonable percentage for the purposes of the PokeMart such as 10-11%? When I calculated 10% of a type, I rounded up, if that helps.

In addition, this does not counter my argument. My argument regards Fairies, which are the least common type (tied with Ghost). Dragon would actually contain more Pokemon/families than Fairy.

 

I'm operating under the assumption that we're leaning toward somewhat probably maybe reorganizing some of the selection in the Mart, because that seems to be the general approach everyone's taking at the moment. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Some point's I'd like to address first:

Granted, there are probably better examples to pick from, but both Felly and I hold gyms, lol. I know for a fact that neither I nor my gym are top-tier, but I think it's a lot more difficult to find a story/art/RP'ing person who doesn't battle than it is to find a battler who doesn't story/art/RP.

On that note, I'd like to point out that most of the people in favor of majorly revamping the Mart (myself, Elamite, Syn, and Gliscorman, to some degree) all participate to some extents in the other sections of URPG, while those who are most set against it/least for it/I know you aren't inherently against it but words aren't coming easily to me right now (Monbrey, Ash, I think?) are far more battling-oriented and don't use the other sections nearly as often. Like I said in my previous post, I get that people have lives and don't care to write fanfiction or arts or whatever, but I feel like there's way too much emphasis on how difficult it is to obtain a lot of the lower-tiered Pokemon--I can't particularly speak for the Park or Art, but even Medium-ranked stories with some semblance of a plot and proper grammar tend to pass fairly often, no matter how abysmal you claim them to be. As for time constraints, yeah, it probably takes more effort than posting in the Mart (then again, you had to battle/ref for that money, which also takes considerable time and effort, mostly), but if it helps, you've probably written around 20-25k characters in this thread alone, should any of that prove to be an issue.

I suppose we should just cut to the core of the argument and admit that people who benefit more from the Mart don't want to see it particularly nerfed, while people who benefit less from it don't mind quite as much. That's the vibe I'm getting from this, but you can shoot me down if you insist.

Also, in regards to waiting with getting turnarounds, yeah, it takes a while to get stuff from other sections (again, I speak mainly for Stories here, but I assume that Art has to suffer a little when Axion takes a bathroom break or something), but the wait never seemed terribly horrible, given that someone else has to personally go through and critique your work in the name of making you better. The example Monbrey used, incidentally:

is completely my fault, lol, because I claimed the story about two weeks ago. However:
a) it's a long story for several captures, meaning more feedback meaning more time invested in the grade
b) it's written by Winter, a veteran writer, meaning that my easy-bake advice can't apply to her, meaning more feedback meaning more time invested in grade
c) I had irl stuff to do last week and didn't have much time to URPG, which is my fault, but this claim is at least twice the time of my normal grades and most grades turn-around really quickly.
In terms of new members/new stories, however (as they seem to be the general focus here), only the last point will even apply--most new members will only go for one or two lower-ranked captures for their first times, and it's a lot easier to critique an upcoming writer rather than one whose been around the block several times.

Also, hey, you're both well-adjusted URPG veterans and whatnot, so stop having a catfight in the background of this. The irony is suffocating.

In regard to the list, I think Smores's is the most solid thus far. Dual-types fitting into both types makes the most sense to me, but I also have the "I can get stuff through other means easily" bias, so there's that.

This.
To add on to the idea of diversifying Mart, though, perhaps we could up the amount of forum auctions/giveaway events? It would still allow people to exchange cash for Pokemon, but it wouldn't be in a way that's so blatantly... straightforward (for lack of a better word) as the current Mart is.

 

I counted using only the fully evolveds that could be obtained in the mart versus the fully evolved total. Dragon has 5 pseudos, which everyone agrees must stay, meaning Dragon has a minimum of 5 of 13. By your proposal, that's the 38.5% I said earlier. Meanwhile, Water stands at I believe 57 (I counted earlier from Bulbapedia's list, I could be off slightly because I did it by hand) fully evolveds, which when multiplied by Dragon's percentage would require 22 Pokémon to be available in the mart.

While I'm not saying that there should necessarily be exactly the same amount of each (and would agree with removing a Fairy or two), there shouldn't be as big a difference as suggested by equal percentages. Doing Elamite's 5-8 seems reasonable if which types get 5, which get 6, which get 7, and which get 8 is properly thought out (which I tried to ask him about how he did that earlier on AIM but I think he must have missed it). Also I think that you need to count Tyrogue as 3 Fighting and Snorunt as two Ice because Tyrogue has three Fighting type fully evolved forms while Snorunt has two Ice type fully evolved forms.

If we need to fix what Pokémon are there to fit a certain number for each type, I'm pretty sure I'd be quite good at that.

Also, if you're looking for an example of types that combine better or worse, Flying combines with every single type with the only one not accessible being mono-Flying (Tornadus)

Bug – Scyther's probably the most viable, but tons
Dark – Murkrow, Mandibuzz, Honchkrow
Dragon – Dragonite, Salamence
Electric – Rotom-Fan (and Emolga)
Fairy – Togekiss
Fighting – Hawlucha
Fire – Charizard, Talonflame
Ghost – Drifblim
Grass – Tropius, Jumpluff
Ground – Gliscor
Ice – Delibird (okay, it's not that great, but probably not as bad as you might think if you spend enough on it)
Normal – Staraptor or Braviary is probably best, but there's a ton
Poison – Crobat
Psychic – Sigilyph, Xatu among others
Rock – Aerodactyl, Archeops
Steel – Skarmory
Water – Gyarados (even though it barely counts, but there are technically others too)

Compare to Dragon:

Bug – Nope.
Dark – Hydreigon
Electric – Zekrom (legend), Mega Ampharos (mega)
Fairy – Mega Latias (rumor, legend, mega)
Fighting – Nope.
Fire – Reshiram (legend), Mega Charizard X (mega)
Flying – Dragonite, Salamence, Altaria + legend
Ghost – Giratina (legend)
Grass – Nope.
Ground – Garchomp, Flygon + legend
Ice – Kyurem (legend)
Normal – Nope.
Poison – Dragalge
Psychic – Latias (legend), Latios (legend), Mega Latios (rumor, legend, mega)
Rock – Tyrantrum
Steel – Dialga (legend)
Water – Kingdra + legend

If you exclude megas and legends (aka Dragon gym legal), that leaves Dark, Flying, Ground, Poison, Rock, Water. Adding Megas adds Fire and Electric.



And to reply to Elysia, because she ninja'd me, I'm perfectly fine with this idea as long as it's done right. The original suggestion of leaving only starters, pseudos, Eevee, first route Pokémon, (and maybe fossils, I forget) went too far overboard. The mart could use some redoing, but it should still contain enough viable stuff that someone who doesn't want to do too much in other sections could reasonably get a decent enough team to hold their own in battles. That's not to say that every Pokémon in any Elite Four member's team should be available, but about half of them (which I think I heard is close to the current number) is reasonable. There should be good Pokémon both in and out of the Pokémart, but it would be nice not to do things that discourage story deals too much, as that is a reasonable way for some battle-confined trainers to get their other Pokémon (like that suggestion on AIM yesterday, while good it really cuts down on the incentive for writers to do story deals).

 

Ok, I'm going to preface this by saying 1. If Fairy is really annoying anyone that much, just drop Snubbull. That makes it like 35%.

2. I don't have time to go do a full post at the moment, but I'd just like to point out that I don't under any circumstance think I approved the number of viable Pokemon in the Pokemart. Sure, I got rid of a lot of the crud (which I think is a good thing, personally), but I think there are an equal, if not fewer amount of those middle tier Pokemon in the Mart now. GMan, you said "save for the fossils, Zubat (like what, why did that get removed?) and, Fletchling (which I agree with)."

Okay first of all, fossil =/ good. And why not Zubat in the mart? Let me point to the Pokemon that are decent that I added: Joltik, Aron, Snorunt. I think that's it. Now let me point out the Pokemon that I think are viable that I removed: Nidoran(m), Zubat, Cloyster, Elekid, Magby, Pinsir, Ditto, Lapras, Kabutops, Misdreavus, Azumarill, Archeops, Rufflet, Axew, Fletchling, Tyrunt. Literally just scanning the list I can see all of these Pokemon that are Tier 2/ high Tier 3 that I'm taking from the Mart.

"cross all the types, the Pokemart actually looks much MORE competitively viable. This seems like a step in the opposite direction of encouraging people to use other sections.

The new system only removes a single Pokemon from each of the E4 line-ups and even then, they're the much more situational ones: Ditto from two, Crobat from one, and Talonflame from one."

This addresses Monbrey too. I never intended at any time to remove an E4 caliber Pokemon from the Pokemart (okay, I think we can agree that those 3 are minority E4). I even went to far as to mention that I didn't want to do that. I think that that caliber of Pokemon should be mostly available because of how readily available they already are/have been to everyone in the URPG (I'm talking Dragonite, Togekiss, Blaziken, etc.) These Pokemon are obviously going to stay in the Mart, as they should. I addressed this above, but yes, I removed the crap from the Mart, added a little bit more viability and took a lot more out. That being said, if you like the fact that the crud was skimmed, feel free to approve of that, but I think it's not appropriate to say I'm making the Mart better.

Lol that this post is this long and not even a "full post." But expect me to address everyone's concerns probably tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd rather people just not say I'm making the mart more viable, maybe on the average, but why does that even matter? Also, you guys are making me blush with all of your compliments :blush:

 

This certainly is a topic of some discussion and I appreciate everyone taking their time to consider different viewpoints. It's good to think about these things every now and again.

I have a viewpoint based on what I've seen so far, but I don't think we're at a point where a decision can be made yet. I think we need to talk things through.

To let everyone know where I currently stand. I think that the number of Pokemon available (in terms of total amount) should remain more or less the same. I am neutral about changing which Pokemon are available for purchase. I think the mart is a great way to offer Pokemon to people in a method that doesn't rely on creativity, events, or competitions, which can be a big help to new players.

And, if this matters to some people, I don't buy my own Pokemon. All my Pokemon have been either written for, gifted, or traded to me. And yes, I've written for some Pokemon I could have just purchased, but I chose to write instead of buy. And perhaps that choice, or having the option to make that choice, is worthwhile in its own right.

 

Replacing the current set with a new set, rather than reduce and replace were necessary, seems counter productive if anything, imo.

 

Just because your opinion is currently at the minority/ one that hasn't been built upon much, would you mind explaining why you think specifically, the number available currently is ideal?

 

You have a good point there. I haven't really considered why we never thought to increase the number of Pokemon available.

 

Winter brought to my attention that Bunnelby and Snorunt are available in the Berry Store, and we're both agreed that overlap should be avoided.

 

Pumpkaboo too, if that's still on the list. But I could see replacing Berry Store stuff too if that's needed.

 

Eh, here's the way I see this. The fact that the Berry Store, from which Pokemon are purchased like what once? twice? ever have any effect on this is meaning that I'm fighting too uphill of a battle for something that I am no longer interested in. This honestly is not that big of an issue. I know that it seems like I made it out to be one because of how much effort I put into defending it, but after a day of thinking I really am not that passionate about this happening. I think that the changes I laid out are an improvement on the current system, but I don't think it's possible to balance so many people's opinions on the matter for the change that will be accomplished. I really just don't have the motivation to churn out 5-6 more 1000 word posts for something I am not as passionate about. (Life is getting in the way far too much) I think the few changes that could be made immediately, that almost everyone agrees with, are to remove Pokemon from Johto and Kanto and hopefully drop the fossils and replace with some other Rock types (at least I haven't seen much resistance to either of these, and general favorability). Everything else, as people have said, may not have any effect on the way the Pokemart is approached. If someone else who thinks this is an issue central to the URPG wants to take the reigns from me on this campaign feel free, and feel free to take/leave what I've already posted in this thread for arguments for/against (or if you'd like to use my rubric). However, I honestly think there are other things that could use addressing and this is not that big of a deal. Don't expect more posts from me defending this, sorry.

 

I agree, removing E4 caliber Pokemon wouldn't have been the right thing to do. New players need these if they want to become competitive. I wasn't suggesting you should have removed more. As a result, the Pokemart still offers the top tier battling selection it always did, and is just as competitively viable in general terms as before. This is good.

You improved upon equalizing the type diversity in the Pokemart. Every type now has a good selection to choose from. Some types, like Ghost and Steel, really improved with the addition of Snorunt, Pumpkaboo, Aron and Klink. Others like Fire and Water were already fine to begin with, and haven't really fallen behind at all. So on average, the competitive viability of a type has improved.

I honestly think you're misrepresenting the comparison between these two lists.

I agree with your list of competitively viable Pokemon that were removed. However, many of those I would only consider truly viable in a monotype lineup, such as Magmortar, which isn't even in my gym anymore.

Then, of the Pokemon you added you consider competitively viable, you seem to have ignored ones that might only be used for a monotype lineup. The only ones I wouldn't at least consider for a monotype would probably be Delibird, and maybe Vanillite because I honestly know nothing about it.

However, if your opinion is that only three of the Pokemon being added are competitively viable, why are you (in your opinion) adding crap back into the Pokemart after removing all of it?

You left the top end of competitive viability, which I think we're all agreed is good. You improved on the average type viability. You removed what is, in my opinion, the bottom end of competitive viability, plus all the crap that isn't.

Overall, there is a lot less Pokemon available in your proposal, which does mean a smaller range of competitive options. But not by much, since most of what was removed was crap, and a decent number of new competitive Pokemon replaced most of the removed ones.

This means that on average, the competitive viability of the Pokemart selection as a whole has definitely improved.
I'm making up numbers here to illustrate my point, but if 40 Pokemon out of the old 100 were viable, and now we have 30 out of 50, that's a boost from 40% to 60%.

And like I've said before, I'm not disagreeing with your proposal. I honestly think this boost is probably a good thing. But I really still don't see how any of this improves on the other sections like intended.

---

As for the Berry store, while the no-overlap isn't crucial, it does completely devalue a Berry Store only Pokemon by having it in the Pokemart. They rely on being exclusive. Why else would anybody bother to Contest?

 

If needed, I'm sure a few Berry Store Pokémon could be swapped out. If people give me a list of stuff that needs to be swapped out, stuff that can be swapped out, and change in desired type totals, I'll look into shuffling things around if that's needed. I'm good at that type of thing.

 

Ya know, I think I have figured this out!

I have seen a lot of these Pokemon stay in the mart for years. I've seen some come and go like Snorlax and Magikarp. But here's a thought that might provide a little bit of fun to the mart.

I see that it's pretty much been agreed to stay away from Regional organization an go with Type balance. So I say take no more than 3 slots per type then randomly roll for each type. Once the Pokemon have been selected pricing for the Pokemon can begin. Yes some might repeat but that's just fine. This opens up for possibilities of obtaining Pokemon that aren't normally obtained through mart and bypasses basic battling. We can keep basic battles if you want, doesn't really matter. However, it gives those who aren't talented in art/stories/rp's to obtain Pokemon they never would have. And of course, this may jack the prices up but that's the cost of doing it this way.

This isn't a one time thing. Actually it's more like a roulette to be done every 3 months or so making it done 3 to 4 times a year.

 

Is this the part where the thread dies and the issue goes to Staff, never to be heard from again?

Well, we COULD always move some Mon from the Mart to the Berry Store? I'm only slightly joking here. Contests are fun, but people rarely compete. I think a good portion is they feel they can't be bothered to learn the mechanics, but imo it's easier to get the hang of a handful of moves to use for a few Pokemon (depending on what kind of Contest you're in, like Smart or Cool) than it is to have to keep track of dozens of moves whose use drastically depends on the person you're battling and the flow of battle. People also don't really have much of an incentive to take part in Contests at the moment. Yeah, we have some Mon in the Berry Store now, obviously it's not enough of a draw. But maybe, if we move some of the better Mon from the Mart to the Berry Store, it would give people (especially newbs) more of a reason to check out Contests and take part. Also maybe reduce the Scarf requirement? I don't know, I'm not sure what all went into the development of the Berry Store.

This way the Mon still exist for purchase, it just requires activity in another (non-creative) section. Activity breeds activity, too; if we get more people who regularly Contest, we can Contest more regularly. Which means people can regularly earn CC and Ribbons for Berry Store Mon.

Also, I personally think we should remove the Fossils from the Mart, or at least most of them. Especially since we can get them from the Underground for 7.5k lol. Sure it's luck-based and apparently there's some dumb thing where they have a 70% chance to break now (? wtf is up with that? 70% is WAY to high of a chance and imo there shouldn't even BE a chance for Fossils to break), but still. Or we could remove half. Like it's been said, we don't need to have Mon in pairs, and it's not like it's being done now to start with (Pumpkaboo but no Phantump, Murkrow but no Missy, Grimer but no Koffing, so on and so forth. So why does every Fossil need to be paired? Take out some of the good ones, leave some of the good ones in. Lileep and Tyrunt are two we could leave in because they're decent (or rather, their evolved forms are).

Also, I'm among those who don't buy Pokemon from the Mart. I'd much rather spend my money EMing my Pokemon as opposed to wasting money on something I can get for free via Story/Park. I know that I'm among a minority here, but here's something to think about. People are saying taking out Mon would discourage people from actively taking part in sections outside of Battling, but look at the list of Pokemon by Story rank that was posted several pages back. Most of these Pokemon are in a range that's easy to write for, even for people who aren't very creative. Medium can be a LITTLE tricky, but even then if you can write for a Simple, you can bump things up a bit for Medium requirements. And for the Park, you pay 2.5k (maybe more depending on the run) for 3-4 Pokemon. Yes, it takes much more time than just paying out some money and having a post approved in a few minutes up to a few days, but it's also much more cost-effective.

I honestly think some of the easier Mon to obtain should be removed, simply because it lets people focus more on taking part in a few other sections, and also doesn't have new people buying a roster of crap Mon just because they happen to be readily available. It's already hard enough for newer people to EM the Pokemon they get without them wasting their money on something like a Wingull. I understand having a few decent Mon available for a fair chunk of change, but I don't understand having next-to-useless things in there simply because it's a common Mon. And don't give me that "but what if a new person's fave Mon is Pelipper lol" stuff, you whippersnappers. A person writing or RPing for a favorite Pokemon would give it lots more sentimentality than just chucking down a few thousand URPG-dollars to have it in five minutes. Just because the Mart is (sorta) immediate doesn't mean it should be touted as superior to the sections that require time for the reward.

EDITS: Got Missy and Murk switched, was informed only Aero/Tomb "fossils" have a chance to break. I don't do the Underground anymore and I'd heard Fossils have a chance to break, figured it was all of them lol.

 

For the record, Smores' proposed list has been taken to be worked on.

General opinion among staff is that it's good but we would still like a slightly larger selection available, so some Pokemon will likely be added to it.

Conflicts between Mart/Berry Store also need to be resolved.

 

Just pls remove crap Mon, especially the ones that are better represented by better Mon of their Type(s) (lol Wingull keeps getting picked on but srsly WHY is it there when much better Water and Flying Mon are available?). Also, people who have rosters of cheap but crap Mart Mon have to contend with older members who have better Mon to work with, and since newer people are about as common as crystal-blue waters in a desert, there's not much "equal experience" going on between the new people for them to not be so hampered by crap Mon. Obviously "crap" Mon is subjective, but I think the general populous can agree that there are several Mon that just don't justify being in the Mart (like a certain Water/Flying avian >.>...)

Just wanted to toss it out there in hopes that at least partially-decent Mon are kept lol.

 

I have to ask, did you read Smores' list? Because what you've requested we do is pretty much exactly what he did and we were already agreed on :ksmile: