Reducing Gyms

Oh no, please don't take away my Houndoom Ghost WC. How will I ever deal with the Tyranitar and Scrafty threats without it?

 

Lucario gets a buff to BST of 100, and raises his speed, attack, and special attack quite high. I would assume it makes Lucario much more viable. I will be using Mega Lucario in my steel gym like crazy.

 

I can't say for sure without playing around with it, but my initial answer is "only slightly". It gets faster and has a decent attack boost for sure, but Mega Evolutions take a turn to set up and URPG battling is 95% of the time about hitting like a truck right from the word go. Besides, there's a huge difference between "something that can kill Flying-types" and "something that doesn't instantly die to Flying-types". Mega-Lucario is still slower than most of the main threats anyway - Electivire fights them off most of the time by being bulky, and Lucario / Mega-Lucario sure as hell isn't that.

EDIT:

That doesn't tell the whole story, though. Sure, Mega Lucario might be cool in normal circumstances but things are very different in a Gym. Even with these boosts he doesn't outspeed lots of the dangerous stuff, and without STAB he's not going to be able to kill them before they kill him. Afterall, his defensive stats are still atrocious.

 

Yeah, but I don't use Lucario as much more than a late-match sweeper. He usually comes in to seal the deal. I was just saying Mega-Lucario gets the power-ups needed to make him a little more usable in the URPG for me, being a steel gym and not many other Pokemon I have are as flexible as he is. I know compared to your gym, though, he still gets shafted. Flying-types are still going to outspeed him for the most part, and the defense boosts are minimal.

 

Sure you aren't talking about the normal Metagame? Or perhaps that is part of your problem?

 

WTP, you're one of the most intelligent people on this site. It's a pity you have to use those damn images all the time: I can barely understand your point. Is it that the URPG metagame is similar to the real games'? Or that the strategy behind taking down Fighting Gyms is to hit hard and fast? I honestly have no idea.

If someone was to ask me: Chainy, do you think you can defend your Gym without Electivire? My answer would be "Probably, yeah." However, if they asked me: Chainy, do you think that Fighting -deserves- a WC (just like a couple of Gens ago it was agreed that Dragons deserved multiple)? My answer would be: "Yes, it does." My point is that up until now people were given WCs so they could try to patch up their type's weaknesses, and at some point along the way that got corrupted into "how unbeatable can I make my Gym / what's the most powerful Pokemon I can get away with". I really seriously believe that Fighting needs Electivire because Flying-types are a serious chink in my armour, unlike pretty much any other type (excepting perhaps Dark for Ghost and Steel for Fairies).

That's honest and from the heart, people. Take it as you will.

 

wow a gym being expected to defend against SE Type spam

i dont think thats ever been heard of - ok i guess i have more options for this but fighting gets Hawlucha now its fast and not terrible does this even help

 

While dramatic, you do make a good point. Kinda. But let's not act like Fighting is completely helpless. Invest in some Flying resist berries and Medicham or Gallade beat Crobat.

And regarding your point about being the only type without resistances to its weaknesses, wut. Like half of your lineup is neutral to Psychic and Toxicroak/Lucario for Fairy. It's not like you have swift swim Poliwrath in rain either. If you got gravity, you'd just spam Hypnosis with that. Weren't you the guy who abused Scarf No Guard Fissure Machamp for a while?

 

Not particularly. Hawlucha will get thrashed by any Flying-type worth its salt. Like I said, I could probably defend my Gym against fliers without Electivire, but I think that the difficulty of this is much higher than should be expected for a Gym Leader. For example, when an Ice-user comes to a Grass Gym, the Grass Leader has options. Do they try to stall, do they send out Ferrothorn, do they send out Breloom, etc. In a Fighting Gym, it's pretty much Electivire or bust. Maaaaybe Protect stall with Blaziken.

While I agree that Fighting isn't helpless, that scenario you've given is not a good example. Any decent Crobat user will thrash a Gallade or a Medicham, just go ask Winter, no matter what items are being used. An Acrobatics 2HKOs even with a Coba Berry where a Gallade can't OHKO. And that's not even counting sneakier Crobat tactics like Confuse Ray and Hypnosis and ra-de-ra-de-ra. Again, Fighting isn't helpless, I just think that's been given enough of a shaft to still need Electivire's help.

What I means by the type coverage was the following:

Normal:
Weak to Fighting, covered by Togekiss, Staraptor, Girafarig.
Fighting:
Weak to Flying, covered by NONE.
Weak to Psychic, covered by Scrafty, Pangoro.
Flying:
Weak to Electric, covered by Gliscor.
Weak to Ice, covered by Charizard, Aerodactyl, Talonflame.
Weak to Rock, covered by Skarmory, Gyarados, Jumpluff.
Poison:
Weak to Ground, covered by Tentacruel, Roserade, Amoonguss.
Weak to Psychic, covered by Gengar, Skuntank, Drapion.
Ground:
Weak to Ice, covered by Camerupt, Excadrill, Rhyperior.
Weak to Grass, covered by Gliscor, Mamoswine, Nidoking.
Weak to Water, covered by Torterra, Stunfisk.
Rock:
Weak to Grass, covered by Aerodactyl, Armaldo, Magcargo.
Weak to Fighting, covered by Aerodactyl, Lunatone, Archeops.
Weak to Water, covered by Cradily.
Weak to Ground, covered by Kabutops, Cradily, Aurorus.
Weak to Steel, covered by Magcargo, Rhyperior, Golem.
Bug:
Weak to Fire, covered by Shuckle, Crustle, Surskit (lol).
Weak to Flying, covered by Galvantula, Shuckle, Crustle.
Weak to Rock, covered by Durant, Parasect, Escavalier.
Ghost:
Weak to Dark, covered by NONE.
Weak to Ghost, covered by itself.
Steel:
Weak to Ground, covered by Empoleon, Ferrothorn.
Weak to Fire, covered by Empoleon, Excadrill, Bastiodon.
Weak to Fighting, covered by Metagross, Skarmory, Bronzong.
Fire:
Weak to Ground, covered by NONE (although mitigated by ground immunities such as Charizard, Talonflame, Rotom-H.)
Weak to Rock, covered by Blaziken, Infernape, Camerupt.
Weak to Water, covered by Rotom-H.
Water:
Weak to Electric, covered by Quagsire, Swampert, Gastrodon.
Weak to Grass, covered by Swanna, Gyarados, Tentacruel.
Grass:
Weak to Fire, covered by Ludicolo, Torterra, Cradily.
Weak to Poison, covered by Torterra, Exeggutor.
Weak to Flying, covered by Cradily, Abomasnow, Rotom-M.
Weak to Ice, covered by Cradily, Chesnaught, Ferrothorn.
Weak to Bug, covered by Jumpluff, Cradily, Tropius.
Electric:
Weak to Ground, covered by Lanturn, Rotom-W, Rotom-Freeze.
Psychic:
Weak to Bug, covered by Xatu, Solrock, Sigilyph.
Weak to Dark, covered by Gallade, Medicham, Gardevoir.
Weak to Ghost, covered by Malamar.
Ice:
Weak to Fire, covered by Dewgong, Aurorus, Mamoswine.
Weak to Steel, covered by Mamoswine.
Weak to Rock, covered by Mamoswine, Lapras, Abomasnow.
Weak to Fighting, covered by Jynx, Delibird.
Dragon:
Weak to Dragon, covered by itself.
Weak to Ice, covered by Tyrantrum.
Weak to Fairy, covered by Dragalge.
Dark:
Weak to Bug, covered by Honchkrow, Tyranitar, Houndoom.
Weak to Fighting, covered by Honchkrow, Malamar, Mandibuzz.
Weak to Fairy, covered by Skuntank, Bisharp, Drapion/
Fairy:
Weak to Poison, covered by Mr Mime, Gardevoir.
Weak to Steel, covered by NONE.

Obviously that's not the whole story, but my point is that Fighting has one of the four isolatable lack of dual-type coverages in the entire game, and personally I think that this alone warrants a WildCard.

Also yeah, I spammed Gravity Fissure for a while, it was awesome. You can bet your arse that if I got perma-Gravity approved I'd do it again, but Monbrey already shut that down.

 

Okay, but what you've listed is so flawed. By that logic, Gallade and Medicham are great "covers" to Crobat. Almost as great as your Delibird suggestion to counter Fighting.

Ice:
Weak to Fire, covered by Dewgong, Aurorus, Mamoswine. -Yeah, I'd never use any of them to counter Fire. It's not like only Fire types I face have Close Combat or HJK anyway.
Weak to Steel, covered by Mamoswine. -Yep, it's not like Manoswine loses to Metagross from Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch, while Meta comfortably takes EQ. I also guess Mamoswine's a great counter to Scizor, Ferrothorn, Empoleon and friends.
Weak to Rock, covered by Mamoswine, Lapras, Abomasnow. -Lapras and Abomasnow are great Tyranitar counters. Yep. Same with Dewgong and Delibird too because it has Counter and can use a Focus Sash. Very effective stuff.

If anything, you should be worried about the now Fairy/Flying Togekiss and Gardevoir. Crobat is a pushover compared to them.

 

>admits to Gravity Fissure spam
>complains about Flying spam
>mrw

 

See, this argument doesn't even work for the majority of the types Rock is weak to. Having Magcargo as any sort of counter to anything is terrible; Magcargo can't take a single hit because most Steel types carry EQ, which is always a guaranteed OHKO while Mag can't pull off even a 2HKO. Plus, it isn't about what can counter what single type. Most people send things that have multiple types, and pose several problems at the same time. The only water counter Rock has is Cradily, so what do you do against Empoleon? You can't afford to lose your 'mon, and you can't stall it out. Rock has very little fighting to take care of that kind of threat, and even spamming EQ doesn't help.

The majority of Rock 'mons look good on paper, but have very little substance in practice. Aurorus looks cool and is my absolute favorite of the new ones, but just look at the weaknesses. Crippling 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Steel, and weak to 6 common attacking types overall.

Zap Archeops past 50% health and it becomes almost completely useless. Aerodactyl is hard-pressed to really injure anything (which is why I like it, but that's an entirely different matter).

Highest defense of all Pokemon? Nope, Aggron has crippling Fighting and Ground weaknesses to even it out. Rhyperior has Grass and Water.

The only new 'mon that I really foresee being helpful is Tyrantum, simply because it has at least some defensive potential in that the majority of types it is weak to are physical-based.

 

THE TITLE OF THE THREAD IS REDUCING GYMS, HOW DOES WILD CARDS MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO HOW WE ARE GOING TO IMPLEMENT THE NEW GYM SYSTEM - WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING WHICH GYMS FROM EACH REGION GET CUT OR KEPT NOT WILD CARDS WHICH IS AN ISSUE FOR MONBREY AND THE STAFF TO DISCUSS NOT US AS WE ARE HARDLY UNBIASED

Kanto: Pewter, Cerulean, Viridian, Cinibar, Fuschia, Saffron - Rock, Water, Ground, Fire, Poison, Psychic
Johto: Goldenrod, Ecruteak, Blackthorn, Olivine, Azaelea, Mahogany - Normal, Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Bug, Ice
Hoenn: Lavaridge, Petalburg, Fortree, Dewford, Sootopolis, Mauville - Fire, Normal, Flying, Fighting, Water, Electric
Sinnoh: Oreburgh, Eterna, Hearthome, Canalave, Sunnyshore, Snowpoint - Rock, Grass, Ghost, Steel, Electric, Ice
Unova: Virbank, Mistralton, Opelucid, Driftveil, Lentimas, Floccesy - Poison, Flying, Dragon, Ground, Dark, Fairy (just two generic towns in black and white that fit the bill as dark and fairy i feel)
Kalos: Santalune, Shalour, Courmarine, Laverre, Anistar, Geosenge - Bug, Fighting, Grass, Fairy, Psychic, Dark (I felt since geosenge was the sight of such disaster its suitable for a dark gym you also can encounter Houndour, Pancham, Scraggy, Inkay and absol all before this gym too so theres plenty of dark type variety.)

This line up uses cannon towns to house new gyms with fairly good justifications crazy ghost house in lentimas and floccesy sounds soft and fluffy and you can capture marill near the ranch there. Geosenge is the sight of massive death a perfect place for a dark gym. This arrangement only drops 3 cannon gyms to replace with our new gyms and ive tried to favour keeping gen 1 gyms then gen 2 etc down the line and still keep two of each type.

Mossdeep was dropped in place of anistar due to doubles special rule that used to be forced there (some debate on if it still is and because its doubles in the game as opposed to a standard format)

 

I thought we agreed on the gyms we were keeping a while ago (at least, no one disagreed with Harry's suggestion). The thread has developed into gym changes, which isn't a bad thing since we might as well fix all the problems we have while we're at it.

To be fair to Chainy, in my relatively short time as a fighting leader recently, Electivire was the one mon I ended up using every battle. I think we should keep wild cards for certain gyms which need them more than others, like we do now (argument for no dragonite in water gyms is that water type is diverse enough as it is) but be more strict on it. Really, dragon doesn't need any that badly now, so maybe allow fighting and fairy to have one?

 

Agreed? i didnt see any discussion around the actual gyms themselves why those specifics where being kept over others and any reasons for positioning what gyms in what new towns. As well it seemed harrys list contained the ones that "Must" and then mostly colour coded suggestions that where interchangable. Also i might be a moron but i didnt find it the easiest to read but that was probably me

 

There were no reasons, but there didn't need to be. The colour code was to make it easy for him - if we are having two ground gyms, thee must be one in kanto and unova since those are the only ground ones. While the rest are interchangeable, there's not really any need.

 

okay. stop. what the actual fuck. chainy literally put shuckle, surskit, and crustle(trust me it's not very good) as usable Pokemon in a bug gym.... that should be an obvious enough indication that bug deserves a wildcard too. Also the only Pokemon that can honestly cover flying types from that list is galvantula, but that electric weakness gets covered by every dragon/flying. did you know that the only bug type that learns ice beam is masquerain who gets outsped and ohkod by rockslide from dragonite and ledian, bolbeat and illumise are the only ones who get ice punch. plus that list are the only ones that learn fairy moves too... like come on chainy stop throwing everyone else under the bus fighting is one of the best types in the Game with one of the best stabs, great coverage moves on like every single one ( stone edge eq ice punch)

 

Point is, yes WCs are still very necessary. Funny how the only people against it have no good WCs for their type!

 

Haha, I was half joking when I said I was against it.

But I would like to figure out a way to get a more useful WC for my gym. >.>;

 

I wonder what today would be like if we went back in time and had no wildcards. Would be an interesting topic today..