Reducing Gyms

Erm are you implying that Grass Has no good WC's Florges is a specially defensive beast and will deal with the every present threat of Dragonite and Salamence and now Noivern (in particular going to be difficult for grass who traditionally have always ran water - say hello to the hurricane) Now saying that I don't really care for the concept of wild cards. You should be playing with a type your fond of i picked grass cos i really like grass, Gliscor likes Rock and Smores Bug, the only people bitching about wild cards are those people who want to some how make there type more competitive rather than working within the boundaries of there type. The same people who would happily pick up a open water/flying gym and demand Blaziken/dragonite wild cards

Edited out your bullshit for you there Taither and added what you was really thinking.

you can thank me later

 

^ Not directed at you

 

My point is I have a good potential wild card and im all for there removal

 

Uhh, no. My Wildcard is virtually useless. GG getting an extremely fast electric monotype for steel gym that also has pretty low other stats and very few ways of raising Sp. Attack. So, please let me know what an electric type is going to do against fighting, fire, or ground-types?

 

I think perhaps this issue we're having here with this debate is how we define the role of a gym leader in URPG. The current definition that most people seem to be following is this; "A battling institution that is pre-requisite for being able to challenge the E4 and eventually the Champion, the greatest battlers in URPG, that are themed upon certain types". Certainly, this definition at first might seem perfectly ideal for our purposes. However, I believe people who are great proponents of Wild Cards are putting (perhaps) undue emphasis on the, "theme", aspect, in that it isn't so much an absolute requirement, but a general principle of relating to a certain type, much like Lance's classic addition of Aerodactyl and Charizard to his E4 lineup in RBY. By this logic, which is not necessarily faulty, it makes sense to allow things such as Porygon-Z in Electric gyms and Slowbro in Ice gyms. However, operating under this logic, all gyms must have an equal, non-discriminatory opportunity to WildCards. Therefore, if Slowbro is added to an Ice gym for being found in cold climates such as the Seafoam islands, where Ice types are often found (the only place to find them in RBY if I recall), then by the same logic, Dragonite is completely viable in a Water gym because the members of its evolutionary family can only be found underwater.

The only gyms that originally got any Wildcards for Pokemon that had no evolutionary link to their gyms type were Psychic, from a shortage of Psychic types, Dragon from a shortage of Dragon types (for which they were granted an extra Wildcard as it used to be quite serious), and Ghost for the same reason as the other two. There is no logical basis for trying to, "balance out", the gyms by granting off-type WildCards to certain gyms and not others now that there is a wealth of Pokemon to pick from in most, if not all types. Nowhere does it say that all gyms should provide roughly the same challenge. Taking the competency of the leader out of the equation, there are some types that are just more dangerous competitively and are gifted with some incredible Pokemon and great type diversity. Some are less fortunate. The point is not to offset these natural shortcomings. The point is to be an obstacle to battlers attempting to take the E4 challenge by forcing them to think critically how to beat each team of each type with whatever curveballs the leader sends them in the battle rules. The leaders are supposed to showcase everything each type has to offer at their best.

However, if you believe the gym leaders should be allowed to have an off-type Wildcard that is there to help counter the common enemies of the gyms given type, then you're shifting the focus of the E4 challenge from the Challengers to those who are the obstacles. Then its all about the gym leaders. The E4 challenge is not in place so the gym leaders have challengers, its so the challengers need to prove themselves before battling the E4. If you're upset because the gym you chose just has a inherent disadvantage, I see 3 courses of action:

1. Innovate

2. Pick another gym

3. Acclimate to your record


In conclusion, I really hope I didn't do that thing where I start writing a long post about something and get distracted in the middle of it. That usually results in an incoherent post @[email protected]

EDIT: Do note though, that I don't believe the logic behind Wildcards is faulty in itself. I do however, think that we either have to grant reasonable Wildcards to ALL gyms with the SAME logical arguments or none at all. That being said, I favor the, "none at all", side. Sure, a Fighting gym may need an Electivire more than a Water gym needs a Dragonite, but if the logic for granting Electivire fits Dragonite at least just as well, then we have no right to deny the Dragonite. So, to me, its really a question of what seems more appropriate and I find no Wildcards to be more appropriate. Its not about balancing all the gyms, its about a challenger running the gauntlet of all the different types. Hopefully, this short summation is what I actually said above :|

 

WTP hit the nail on the head.

Essentially, he's right. Wild Cards were originally introduced to make up for a lack of variety in gyms. With only 251 Pokemon, there were only so many Pokemon in each type. Many Gym Leaders, if I recalled correctly, even doubled up on the same species of Pokemon because there weren't enough Pokemon to meet the requirements.

Since then, a lot of Pokemon have been introduced, but so too has the intended purpose of Wild Cards.

It's a matter of determining just what purpose we want them to serve at this point.

 

I never claimed that my argument was perfect, it was just a reason for me to keep Electivire. I was trying to demonstrate how most types have a cover, as sure while the covers might not be great, a good Leader will find a way to use them (Focus Sash, Choice Scarf, haxxing, etc) and that Fighting doesn't have -any- Flying covers.

However, WTP has a great point about all types having different strengths and weaknesses and therefore posing different challenges. I'm going stop debating WildCards now - I've put my opinions forward and it's up to Monbrey and Harry to decide what to do. The base of it is that I think Electivire is crucial to a Fighting Gym but if WildCards are going to be removed altogether at least it's fair.

 

WTP, you have shown me the light. You have freed me from the wrongings I hath preached. I actually really like what you said about how the challenge had stemmed away from E4 and towards Gym Leaders. A lot of people stop at the Gym Leader stage as it is. I think it's the whole gym leader record idea, and how the best records have been preserved that has trained people to think that gym leader records are the be all and end all. We should probably be more about trying our hardest with just our type; using the type's strengths and our battling ability to test the challenger. We shouldn't be impossible obstacles that puts people off the gym system as a whole.

 

Thank you for saying in such an eloquent way what i have been trying to say all along

 

In summary/agreement with WTP's post, gyms should find a way of making their Own types the best possible with ems/dw abilities as their Own counters, not trying to rely on outside types to try and make up for their types possible shortcomings. I just think no WC's would be alot easier and stop the "but I want this WC because here is how it technically fits my theme" debate.

 

Ya, WTP actually is convincing me towards his argument. Well put. My main argument is against some types getting a wildcard while others don't because one type is just too "bad".

One thing that I'd like to suggest if Wildcards get the boot: would it be okay to add more slots to the gym lineup? If the point is to defend with a certain type I don't really understand why there has to be a cap. I mean you could argue what's the point, you're not going to use more than 12 different Pokemon, but as more Pokemon get released with every generation there are more and more specific checks needed. I don't think this is too much to ask, especialy if Wildcards get removed. In most cases, it isn't making the gyms that much better, but it would just help.


EDIT:
Also, Chainy, maybe try Scrafty versus Crobat? Gets great bulk on both sides and has Head Smash / Stone Edge.

 

I'm fairly certain Monbrey wouldn't be opposed to a boost in gym lineups. I do think, however, that the size of the lineup should be less stressed in gym applications. I feel like to often apps become a competition to get the most owned mons. I think after a certain point, it shouldn't really matter. A giant lineup can be detrimental in DPPT, if you don't really use all of the lineup too frequently. /tangents

 

*has every pre gen 6 non legendary grass mon with the exception of carnivine*

Please let me use every mon of my type that i own in my gym DO IT

nah just kidding I feel that Number of owned vs rental and number of ems plus ability to em should be considered - for instance i do not have a URPG Job but Felly does thus if felly wanted my gym over me when were all forced to re apply she could in theory be in a position to make more uprg pennies and better equip her gym than me (ok so this is an odd one but eming mons requires some kinda income and its difficult to do on just battle income)

 

Let's hope leaders will be able to defend vs the new mega evolutions. Or have items off more often probably more likely.

 

Im just gonna ban megas in my gym

 

>thinking I wont be opposed to something
>lol

I kinda don't care if lineups get expanded or not. WTP is right though, the emphasis on numbers is kinda dumb.

When I first started, pretty sure gym lineups were 8 Pokemon. Then 10, now it's 12. People tend to ask for more Pokemon every time gyms get mentioned. I get that there's more options now, but the point of options is to choose the X number of best ones.

I'm using 12 Pokemon now, but I honestly can't see myself using 15. I'd swap out something like Magmortar for Delphox - Delphox can do roughly the same job with added STAB on Psychic.

 

Mega-Evolution clause, maybe? I think that's a good way to balance out with gyms that like having items but don't want to face something ridiculous like Mega-Charizard X/Y or other notoriously good Megas we have seen so far.

 

I feel like we should wait and see just how broken Megas are. It's a bit silly to make a huge jump and ban something without first making sure exactly how good they are. Besides, considering this huge swing we're on about making Gyms less insurmountable and more accessible, maybe you should just deal with Megas, even if they -are- broken. After all, you can always turn items off. Wanting Megas banned but items on is a bit greedy imo.

 

I really don't care about Megas, as I kind of want to use one of the many steel megas that were introduced for my gym. I just offered an idea that would maybe give other gym leaders a little less of a hassle with Megas when they themselves may not have a feasible Mega for their gym.

 

I don't remember who said this, but I remember hearing that Mega evolution's are in most cases, worse than slapping on a Life Orb in terms of power increase, so I honestly doubt that they're that broken.