Reducing Gyms

1: Huge Amount of particularly inactive leaders who only really show up for roll call and slink into the shadows again because giving them three weeks and then mentioning them and giving them another 2 days was excessive they should be active enough in urpg to spot it within a week and reply in that timeframe - being a gym leader is a commitment if your going to be inactive for a extended period of time you should be letting your LO know Winter being an example shes extremely busy right now with school and work shes active enough to still hold her gym but probably might miss a roll call in a week time frame so shed tell her LO shes still around and give a rough estimate for how long the situation is going to be that way and then when that time is up she has to check back in and then the LO can decide if shes still the best choice for gym leader - this allows for genuine absences while cock blocking people who get word theres a roll call and mysteriously show up

2 No one wants a rock gym - except Gliscor and his a turd with electric type immunity and poison heal, Like Wise for the amount of Electric gyms there hugely underpopulated (Pbabe doesn't count since in my mind shes essentially inactive in a battling capacity)

3. Certain people are shit gym leaders - Not mentioning names here but gyms are supposed to be a challenge and frankly some of them are laughable - i realise i was shit when i was new and had a gym but you shouldnt be new and have a gym

4. No Place for new people to learn how to be a gym leader - I really would like to push the Dojo league here as a brilliant way to educate people in monotype battling simply poot a noob monotype tourney where people inexpereinced with a specific type or urpg can battle it out with others of roughly equal skill level so that when people want a gym they dont get kurbstompped by the first blue towel airik or ash k that walks past them

 

I don't see any advantage of this over the type based system except that we get to keep them in regions. The types aren't balanced, in particular Water and Flying as Akinai said, the two most popular gyms with the biggest pool of Pokemon.

And the Orange Islands are a joke at best.

I agree with you on new Elite 4 rules. That's a given no matter what system we take up.

Sure, this is easy to implement. But do we want the easiest system or the best system?

In a smaller league that gives people way too many badges. The problem was that people couldn't challenge all the gyms, and they're just going to be handed badges? "Gee thanks, now it doesn't matter at all." There is a surplus of old badges compared to new ones. Anyone with >36 badges (using that number for arguments sake) would have already completed that new system. Defeats the purpose.

I don't see how the old badges aren't being honoured. They would stay in people's stats forever, no longer obtainable, as a symbol of what they achieved in the Gym League of old.

 

You appear to have lost these.

But I do agree with what you said.

 

Honoring them as merely a trophy of some sorts isn't the same as making badges still useable in some sense. As others have suggested, we could just implement a one for one transition over, Based on type. Vermillion and Sunnyshore badges would mean they have electric all full, whereas only having Cerulean and not Sootopolis would mean they still need one more water badge to finish the water set. If someone was, to, say, have three electric badges, then those should stay inactive or somehow be converted into some other reward. $500 per excess badge, or something, I don't know. I just randomly thought $500 because that number is pretty low, consistent with losing a 2v2, so unless alot of people have alot of duplicate badges/more than two of each type, people shouldn't be able to get more than $3,000. If people even have a majority of badges from the types currently represented in the leagues, there would still be four they needed, two dark, and two fairy.

I would think that this overall still gives them credit for winning in the past, and provides an easy transition over to the new system

 

why are we even discussing badge conversion when we havn't even seemed to have settled on a structure for the proposed new gym league it feels like your putting the cart before the horse

 

These points are pretty irrelevant, besides the electric gyms being underpopulated. If you have issues with this, bring it somewhere else.

As for the re-structuring of the gym system, why don't we just keep certain regions that don't really overlap with typings too much, then add our own region(s) that cover certain types? I see the main issue is people don't want to give up their city or named badge, so maybe if we try to come up with a compromise to save some game regions and also implement our own to fit all types? On paper, it would probably be a better idea than trying to brute force people into accepting a solution they absolutely abhor.

I know people will probably argue uncontrollably over which regions should be saved, etc. At that point I would just see it as being stubborn. Take the compromise or don't participate unless you have a better solution that would appeal to everyone.

I am actually pro-custom gyms, just because it gives you the power to be more creative with your gyms philosophies, and you could always roleplay your own little town associated with your new, shiny badge. I think it would be a great idea to incorporate more roleplaying into the URPG via gym leagues. I know it is attractive to have a town from the game associated with your gym, and being able to see the life of your gyms town, but it opens up so many more possibilities!

Say you're a Ghost gym leader in the new system, being there is only Ecruteak that people REALLY like as a town. Well, if we switch over to the new system, you're not limited to what Ecruteak has to offer. You can have the town where Ghost Pokemon and humans co-habitat, and having Haunters play tricks on you and scare passing trainers be an everyday thing. Hell, it could be what attracts people to your town. I mean, the possibilities are endless! I see that being much more appealing than being stuck with whatever the games have for towns, which sometimes don't even really reflect the type of gym found in a given town.

*Insert approval from the vast majority of rangers here*

As Monbrey and a lot of other people have agreed with, I see there needing to be at least two of every typing. In the past few months, and since I have started in the URPG, I have seen people become really depressed that they will never have a gym of their favorite type unless some veteran player *cough*Ash*cough* quits the URPG (Fat chance at that). Plus, I would LOVE to see a Dark gym. Hell, I would probably want to be a Dark gym leader! I do love my steels, though. Dunno if I could give them up.

There are a lot of types that aren't given justice as gym types in the games, and as fans of the Pokemon series, I think we should give them the justice they deserve. I mean, we have like four damn Ice gyms now. The least we can do is create two Dark gyms.

 

Chain, we already have the problems with the current gym system pretty well known. Maybe we are trying too hard to fix all our problems at once? As it is, inactivity, gym type inequality, lack of motivation to progress through the gyms, and over-abundance of gyms are the problems we should work to fix. Gym leader quality, while a nice addition, is not as necessary as the others imo.

I'm kind of leaning towards everyone having no badges under the new regime. Anyone with previous requirements, which I think is only e4, should retain them for just one Champion battle. People who have already earned badges aren't actually hard done by if they receive no compensation imo. The badges of old won't just disappear. Same with the logs and the memories, the TMs earned from these battles, the win/loss records altered and the vital experience gained.

If no one had any badges, then there would undoubtedly be a huge boon in gym battles. I also think there would be a changed perspective towards gym battles - much like how it was just a few years ago. With people battling and aiming to get all the badges, more people will be encouraged to do so, and then we find that the mentality of these battles have changed. They won't just be about the easy money for losing a gym battle when you never really try.

I really think this is the best option for the urpg future battling community.

 

Quick post because today has been hellish for time to myself to focus on this any, but how's this proposition:

• Keep current number of gyms.
• Change E4 requirements to total badges instead of or as well as complete a set.
• Become stricter on Gym Leader expectations
• Reintroduce Dojo League as a permanent fixture for prospective new Gym Leaders to develop
• Potentially add the option for a small number of gyms to change types for a fee

Reasoning:
Most Gym Leaders don't want to lose their gyms.
Most people don't want to lose their badges or the value thereof.
Empty gyms matter less if total badges are an option over sets of badges. Gyms will fill eventually, and as the playerbase waxes and wanes over time there will always be room in the system for more or fewer Gym Leaders. With a smaller number, as the playerbase grows Gym Leaders may end up overwhelmed with challenges. With too many, as long as League Organizers pay attention to a baseline of quality for Gyms the only problem becomes keeping the Total Badges requirement adjusted to reasonable levels.
Simple solutions are preferred over complex systems.
Dojo League provides a starting point for prospective new Gym Leaders and will help to reduce number of "easy Gyms".
Allowing a small number (6ish?) of specific gyms to change types allows for more type variety without damaging the thematic elements of the League. A fee helps discourage abuse and represents the idea of a gym having to be rekitted to adjust for a new type, and it can always be up to the LO's to decide whether or not the type change would make the League/Region too easy or too difficult.

Probably missed something, still distracted while trying to post this, but hopefully will help some towards a resolution. :3

 

This is the exact mentality I wanted people to approach this change as. I've become despondent by this thread to be honest. I saw this as a way to help the gym league be more competitive and actually completable, plus a way to possibly boost the level and number of gym battles. However, a lot of members are seeing this as almost a personal offense against the 'demographic' (lack of a better word but w/e) of the URPG they represent. Maybe try looking at the positives of this system instead?

To the vets who don't want to lose all of their badges: you'll still have the TMs, money, and the ability to challenge E4 (though to what degree hasn't been decided it will definitely be in one way or another), plus the memory of having beaten the gyms. Not only that, you now have a new league to conquer if you so please. It's not like the badges really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, like we aren't taking away money from you or retroactively making you rechallenge gyms you already beat for rights you've already earned. The badges are trophies for a case, you can still display those trophies, they just won't have worth in the current system (but who cares because you'll already have the prize for collecting all of the badges (E4 challenging rights)).

To the new members who have a lot of badges but no E4 rights: ya you'll lose the progress you have made so far, but to be honest that progress is meaningless. Likely, the badges you have now will never allow you to challenge the E4. People will probably not fill in the unwanted gyms in the foreseeable future so any badges you have in Sinnoh/Hoenn really won't do anything for you. You're going to have to start over to get the Kalos badges anyway (since likely this will be the only complete league when X/Y comes out), so in essence losing your badges isn't much of a change. Feel free to display the badges you've collected proudly, but you'll never be able to use them to get to E4. I don't really see the difference, for you, between adding the Kalos gyms and implementing these changes. I know it seems like restart entirely, but it really isn't. Plus good news is this will hopefully be a better system for you.

EDIT: Also, I don't know why people think this has to be a bland league. Feel free to come up with creative names for the gyms. I know there are talented digital artists among us who could create trainer sprites to accompany any role playing story you want to make for your leader. Or if you would rather be the Cinnabar Leader, then be Blaine. Those are things that the URPG has always allowed and this wouldn't change that at all.

 

EDIT: My message above may be a bit mixed about a vets perspective, but I really don't think its a bad deal for them. The problem, is that this new system, as it has been discussed, doesn't solve the problem we have described and is detrimental to anyone who isn't already E4 eligible.

 

I kind of agree with Blue's suggestion. Instead of Forcing people to have 8 badges of the same region, why not just allow 8 badges Total? This would/should ensure that there are always going to be at least 8 (hopefully more) gym leaders active for people to challenge. That idea, coupled with increased ranger calls/more strict compliance/activity follow up check by their LO's, would allow the current system to stay the same, no one is out of a job, and no one has badges that are either transferred or just left meaningless.

As for Dark types, which I know some people here want the two type system just for dark types, that could be addressed in a dojo or other sort of official capacity. Perhaps Dark type could be the "Final" dojo if you need to beat them in order (I have no idea, since dojo wasn't around when I joined), or just could be considered the unofficial top/final dojo for more elite new players to test themselves against. Blue's overall suggestion seems to have the most results (people can get badges easily due to available leaders), while requiring the least work/changing around/etc from people like Kim, Monbrey, and the other higher-ups in Urpg.

Feel free to let me know what you guys think

 

detrimental. Explain that to me. How could it possibly be worse than impossible to complete?

Also, to address Blue's suggestion: that sounds nice and all, but you have to realize that means that there is pretty much no incentive to challenge the harder leaders over the easier ones. I doubt someone like Ash would ever get challenges if people have no need for his badge. As stands there are at least a couple very skilled battlers in each league, but none of these leaders would ever need to be challenged because one couple simply walk around them to E4.

 

Having any eight badges would make me e4 eligible. Which is why it wouldn't work

 

While slightly off-topic, saying a certain type is terrible, is pretty bad on your part, WTP. As someone with battling experience and seemingly knows it all, people will listen to what you have to say. Shame you're quite far off the mark here. People should realise that every single gym type can have near flawless records with a competent, creative leader. Rock being so awful might be because the majority of the leaders have always been poor, subpar or average battlers. There have been very good Rock leaders, just as there have been poor Flying and Water leaders. Also, I'd put Poison down as an excellent type. Fairy seems quite strong too.

Blue, I don't think having 8 badges is really enough. As it stands, that could be obtained in a day or two. That doesn't mean we have active gym leaders, obviously. Even if it were 30 badges, I'd still be against it. Being able to avoid the better battlers ain't great imo.

 

In the interested in finding a compromise between parties, and resolving this issue, I think we can combine certain suggestions.

A lot of people are in favor of 36 Gyms as proposed in the Type League System. Taking that idea further, TED proposed that we divide those gyms into six leagues with six gyms each (aka 36 gyms total).

I we merge that idea with the current regional system, we can, I believe, create a proposal acceptable to most members:


Regional/Typing League System

Essentially, we keep the six regional leagues and reduce each of them to six gyms each. Some of those gyms will be modified or changed out in exchange for two dark gyms and one additional fairy gym. The proposed leagues are linked below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtiWnKYN83R-dFNkdlJBbWh1RF9SWHJZWkpPdllYZ0E#gid=0

In essence, we retain the themes of the leagues while embracing the Typing League system.

In regards to Elite 4 rules, the requirements can be changed to requiring two or three leagues to be completed. Anyone who could challenge the Elite 4 before will still retain the ability to challenge the Elite 4 if they choose to.

In regards to the Orange Islands, they stay in place. They’re cool. Completing the Orange Island league does not count towards being able to challenge the Elite 4.

Yes, some gyms are being removed and that is unfortunate. Chain proposes that, should we go with the system, all Gym Leaders will need to reapply for gyms. My addendum is that the LO give preference to Gym Leaders who are applying for the same type as their previous gyms.

This solution, in addition to an equitable badge transition, would be acceptable to me.

 

My appeal to sentimentality was neither a defense nor an offensive comment on the new system. I'm just saying that people like things they're familiar with. Sure, we could cut out some gyms and perhaps demolish the concept of, "leagues", but we don't have to remove the old gym/badge names. Either way, I don't think its a particularly important issue, I just felt this particular attribute could benefit from some consideration. Comparing it to the Divisions and the Park isn't a totally fair comparison either. The Parks development was very much based on the Safari Zone, but obviously was obviously changed in order to fit the URPG. Divisions are a complete invention of our own, mimicking the Gym system. Nobody is going to ask, "Why aren't the URPG divisions like the ones in game?" because they don't exist in-game. Stories don't limit you to much of anything. You want to write about the games? Go for it. You don't want to? That's okay too. Gyms are unique because they ARE something we lifted straight out of the game. However, just like I have said above, I don't think it's terribly important, just something to think about. I don't get why you're taking that part so seriously.

Here's the thing guys: If the problem exists either way, then what exactly are we accomplishing by changing the Gym system? If the problem persists, one system is no better than the other. We have define the problem as, "Having too many gyms and not enough leaders". Multiple people have mentioned in this thread that certain gyms of certain types are quite frequently empty because nobody likes to lead them (Rustboro seems to be the most recurring gym of this sort). Therefore, we need to find a new structure that is more likely to stay full of active leaders while remaining competitive. I don't see an particular advantages in this new system over the current one. Factor in the messy business of deciding whether or not all the badges anyone has collected, whether they have few or many, mean anything whatsoever. So, two systems that are more or less, equally flawed and one requires us to make a big change surrounded by contentious issues. I'd much sooner leave it alone than jump to changing it to what I've seen as the proposed model. That is my reason for rejecting the new system, as it has been presented.

Bottom line: Claim I am complaining in self-interest and claim that I am implying the inferiority of certain types. Fine, I really don't care. Just give me one reason to believe the new system will be more effective in retaining full or at least more adequate activity.

EDIT: Harry, I kind of like that proposal. I definitely think that may be somewhat of the right direction to go with this. The badge transition is again, what I'm most worried about. Perhaps reduce some of the less popular gyms to 1 gym instead of 2 and bump some of the more popular types to 3 gyms.

 

WTP whats popular now depends entirely on the memberbase what happens tomorrow when ROCKTYPEFNATIC72 joins urpg and wants a rock gym and is pissed cos there are 3 fire gyms but only 1 rock gym
an even spread is the fairest and most even way to redistribute any new gyms

 

Ya, I mean this is pretty much just another way to implement the basic idea we had at the beginning. It's nice and neat so I like it. Nothing about this bothers me (weird right??). Great Idea HKim (I know Monbrey said not to do this, but oh well).

Maybe we could still go through with the adjusted Gym battle prices idea too? I think this is still an important issue to address.

 

I guess I should post my thoughts and concerns.

There's no guarantee that if there are two gyms of every type that there would be a gym of every type open.

Many of the gym leaders in my experience throughout the years are...

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- Well versed in battling.

- Have a favorite type and choose to take over a gym because of that type.

I find that the people that managed to battle through the current system have become better battlers. They then were able to battle the E4. People are right that the URPG isn't always like the games. You can't rely on leveling only your main Pokemon then OHKOing through the E4. If we make it easier then we may have to look at making contests, stories, and the park easier.

Monbrey and Ash are members that have been here for a long time.

They worked their chaps off to get to where they are today.

Where is their reward?

Whether or not the gym system changes, I still have no interest in becoming a gym leader.

If we take away badges and make everyone start over...

You really are ticking off the older urpg members that have dedicated years into this rpg.

The same way you won't want to restart your Pokemon game after working hard to breed the Pokemon you desire and to train your Pokemon to level 100 is similar to people that have continued to try, learn, and grow.

Also, the E4 in the urpg is not a walk in the park.

Just like writing a 100k+ story or park post.

Battling, like writing and roleplaying, requires a lot of practice and keeping at it.
Then, you grow and become more versed in battling for example.
Thus, you become able to battle those in the E4.
They were assigned to E4 for a reason.

We have battlers with different strategies.
They hold different ideas.
Some battlers think that you don't need EMs.
Other battlers feel that you should add EMs.

Also, the same way Winter encourages everyone to enjoy the growth of your Pokemon through evolution...

Enjoy being in a battle and having fun.

I love throwing my Golems, Furrets, Linoones, Bugs, and Explosions at people.

CAUSE IT'S FUN.

Regards,
Someone that loses most of the time.


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Harry if you want Orange Islands to Stay, can we have a Battle Frontier for fun