Reducing Gyms

i don't see the logic for making someone who already has a good number of badges, get one shot at the league then have to requalify. Beating the E4 and the champion is hard enough, so if they manage to beat the E4 and face the champion, and by chance they lose, instead of just going through the E4 again as is normally run, they would have to get a bunch of badges all over again just for another chance.

/logic​

 

Sorry if I missed your post, I'm quoting a lot of things. Your input is still important to me I promise.

A lot of people have expressed unsureness about whether or not they like this idea, but not many people (aside from Hkim and Nitro) have really said why they don't like this idea, or why they like the current one. I'd like to hear more of these concerns if possible. Also, I could do a summation of current / popular ideas to be edited into the first post, but not tonight cuz I'm sleepy.

 

Boy do I have a lot of posts to address here...
Guess I'll get to work on all the points made and what I think of them.

First of all it probably needs to be said:
I would probably be the LO of all gyms under a type based system. Possibly myself and a second person if it were to be two-per-type.

And before I discuss all the points that have been made, I should address the alternate solutions.

The Seasonal League/Harry's post:
- I feel the same as you; I am ALL for what the current traditional Gym system represents. I love it and I love that my gym is Cinnabar and not "Generic Fire Gym".
- However, what the Gym system represents has become greatly weakened by its huge size and lack of competitiveness.
- The flavour of the system as you put it? I feel that has gotten stale.
- We have too many gyms for them to feel unique. Fire is lucky, there's only two. Others are oversaturated.
- There are too many leaders of varying quality for the position to be revered. Only certain leaders are seen as "the good battlers".
- Too many empty gyms, due to the sheer number available.
- I really do like this Seasonal concept... as a concept. But I feel that it has a few major problems in a practical implementation.
- The Summer and Winter Leagues would feel very identical to me. Except I get ripped off because Cinnabar and Lavaridge are in the same season Same leaders. Slightly different gyms.
- I'm still against people owning more than one gym. I get that these would at least be distinctly separate gyms, but thing brings me back to my above point.
- What people are concerned about is not being able to challenge specific gyms to get ALL badges. Making 50% unavailable for 6 months will not help this. Even more seasons would be worse.

Elite 4 Tournament/Blue Towel's Post:
- Another concept I like that's very difficult to practically implement.
- Having to qualify in a tournament in order to reach the top tier battling is a cool idea.
- Qualifying and entering this tournament would be very difficult.
- The entrant pool would be very limited. This tournament would only apply to people who have beaten enough gyms, but haven't yet beaten the tournament.
- It could be ages between tournaments purely due to the number of available people. Would 3 eligible contestants be waiting months for a 4th/8th/other tournament sized number?
- E4 Type Specialization - Definitely a no. I agree that the lineups aren't hugely different, but they need to be 100% as competitive as possible. Limiting their choices is not ideal.

Some things Smores said that nobody else addressed so he deserves recognition:
- Applications for the new League while the current League is open - Perfect resolution. Makes perfect sense. Annoyed it wasn't that obvious to myself.
- Payouts for Gym Battles - Yes, losing may be a little too beneficial. Winning is a good payout. Happy to make it a flat bonus for winning only (like +$1,000 to the winner of the regular size-based payment)
- Gym Challenge Log - Don't really see the need for this. With reduced leaders and stricter requirements, Report a Gym should definitely be enough.

Number of Gyms:
There's been really good points made for the merits of both 18 and 36 gyms.
One Per Type:
- 18 provides a really high quality of Gym Leader, the best of each type.
- It makes it difficult to determine E4 qualification or change Leaders often.
Two Per Type:
- 36 provides a lot of opportunity, but may encounter the same issues we have now regarding filling gyms, or having weaker leaders in Gyms.
- One of the two will definitely be the "weaker", even if they're both skilled.
Hierarchy System:
- Almost a good idea. But it makes the standings and Elite 4 requirements a little vague. Do they have to be battled in order, all of the first tier first, etc etc.
- Kinda discussed more later.

Starting to lean back towards 18 on this one - but I'll extend that thought later.

Application to Gyms:
- I have to stand against a system where Leaders battle each other. Forcing people to battling using their gym-typed lineup is not a good representation. As Smores pointed out, they rarely have to battle against their own type in gym conditions.
- Battling the LO, while a very cool concept, would become quite tiresome. I also have to be against this idea.
- LO selection is still going to be the most efficient way to select leaders. I definitely support stricter criteria, and a raise in the minimum requirements.

Old Badges:
- I do not believe anyone should be granted new badges based on the old ones they had already earned.
- I mostly don't think old badges should be traded in.
- I do think they should retain the right to challenge the Elite 4 if they had earned it under the old system. I have 100% faith in our Elite 4 not to lose to someone who is not worthy of being there anyway.

Elite 4 Requirements:
- I would have to be in support of it being all 18 badges. Special exceptions could be made if timezones are clearly not matching up for people. But as a baseline, all 18.
- People currently eligible would remain eligible.

Gym Trainers:
- Pretty much ruled out as not being a viable idea. I already discussed why.

Alternate Ways of Obtaining Badges:
- I cannot, under any circumstances, support writing, drawing, roleplaying or contesting your way to the rights to challenge the Elite 4.
- I'm even sure enough to say that the leaders of those other respective sections would agree with me.
- I'm not going to win a Story Comp because of my badges, and they aren't going to challenge the Elite 4 because of their stories.
- The Gym League is (or is supposed to be) the key fixture of the battling section.
- It should be why people battle, and the path they take to reach the upper echelons of the Battle section.

EM's on Rental Pokemon:
- Kinda a good idea. For newbies who need rentals/help. Not really valid to a smaller League system with a higher quality of battler. More on this later.

Activity:
- Definitely in support of more regular and shorter rolecall periods.
- Probably less of a problem with a reduced number of gyms.

AND FINALLY, THE THINGS I SAID I WOULD DISCUSS LATER AND ONE FINAL CATEGORY.

Learning/Opportunities for newer members:
- I'll concede that a position as a Gym Leader is not an ideal place for someone new to be, purely for the sake of learning.
- I still stand by the fact that it's very difficult to learn how to use a type well unless you regularly defend with it.

A SUMMATION BASED ON YOUR THOUGHTS, AND WHAT I THINK IS A GOOD WAY TO GO FORWARD

A New Gym League:

• The new Gym League should have 18 gyms, one for each type.
• The Leaders for these gyms would be selected by the LO/a group of LO's.
• Applications for the new League would occur prior to closing the current League.
• The new gyms should be named after the most well known existing gyms for that type (eg Cinnabar, Celadon, Kanto in general ), or some other appropriately type-based name (eg Firestorm Gym, Tsunami Gym etc). This retains some element of the game/traditional aspect or general badassness and not revert to a generic typing system.
• People who are currently eligible for the Elite 4 would remain eligible.
• Old badges do not have any impact on the new system.
• Quick and fast decisions can be made by the LO/s if someone is not actively defending their gym.
• A new payment system that rewards winning a gym battle would be implemented.

Support for Non-Gym Leaders:
What I'm about to suggest has no real bearing on the the Gym League. It's mostly an idea I had while reading through the discussion of hierarchies, newer members, challenging to be a Leader etc. It probably needs work and hasn't had a huge amount of thought put into it.

A New, Revamped Dojo System

Dojo's are traditionally all about training and learning. A new Dojo system could act as a casual, educational area, where people who aren't up to the standard of challenging or defending gyms could test and learn monotyping in URPG effectively.

In this half-formed idea I have, any member could be a Dojo member if their application is approved. You would post a monotype team, and declare yourself open for battles using that lineup.
I really don't know if there's any objective to these battles, other than providing a way for people to learn monotype teams.
All the battles in this system could be monotype on both sides, but that leaves huge advantages to Fire > Grass > Water > Fire etc.
Otherwise, challenge someone's monotype team with a regular team, and give feedback afterwards.
Given that the battles would be intended for new/developing members, it would probably invite discussion afterwards. When Water beats Fire, help them out and tell them how they may have been able to better deal with whatever it was that did the most damage.
It would also provide an area where we can see who are the "rising stars" with a particular type, if inactivity does become a problem in the Gym League.
Prizes can be awarded for achievement in this area.

I dont know. Like I said, half formed idea to accommodate people not suited for a new, harsher Gym League.

Focus on the main one for now, but feel free to give feedback on this.

and remove basics

 

I was writing a huge essay in which I quoted almost every part of almost every post and addressed them individually, but since getting home from work I have decided that I cannot be arsed. In general, I agree with Monbrey.

The new Gym League should have 18 gyms, one for each type.
The Leaders for these gyms would be selected by the LO/a group of LO's.
Applications for the new League would occur prior to closing the current League.
The new gyms should be named after the most well known existing gyms for that type (eg Cinnabar, Celadon, Kanto in general ), or some other appropriately type-based name (eg Firestorm Gym, Tsunami Gym etc). This retains some element of the game/traditional aspect or general badassness and not revert to a generic typing system.
People who are currently eligible for the Elite 4 would remain eligible.
Old badges do not have any impact on the new system.
Quick and fast decisions can be made by the LO/s if someone is not actively defending their gym.
A new payment system that rewards winning a gym battle would be implemented.

This is all exactly what I want, should we implement a new system.

Also, just saying, if this causes me to lose my Fighting Gym I will be shanking every last one of you fuckers.

 

Monbrey, I agree with mostly all of what you said. However, I do not think old badges should be wiped, or, if they are, people who had old badges with the ability to challenge the e4 shouldn't still be allowed to immediately under the new system. (I at least read it as "old e4 qualifying challengers can still challenge after the wipe". if that's incorrect then sorry, I just wokeup xD). Also, I don't think you should make gym matches pay the winner only. While that sounds possibly good on paper, if a newer player challenges, loses to gym, and doesn't get any $ to buy tms/better his team, then he probably won't feel inclined to battle gyms much, furthermore if he keeps losing and still doesn't get anything for the attempt. Possibly reducing it to 1k for loss, 2k for win I could see/understand, but not just favoring the winner (who is usually the gym leader).

About dojos, I think they're a great idea. It allows newer players to battle competitively, learn about the differences from game to urpg in an advanced setting, and hopefully the dojo leaders could help/make suggestions for tms/etc after the match (even if the challenger wins, it wouldn't hurt), to try and help newer players out. Furthermore, if there was a challenger new-ness limit of people playing 6 months or less, or people who have come back after a long hiatus, you could possibly have newer people as dojo leaders. People like Maxie, myself, or other New-ish but not that bad people could be dojo leaders, and hopefully come across as more on the challengers level, instead of a new playing facing someone like Ash K., or you, and being curbstomped xD. The limit on challengers based on signup could also lessen the overall demand on the dojo leaders, while keeping the most important aspect intact (helping new players).

 

Mind if I ask why? I guess I can appreciate that there is a vague middle ground of people who have badges but aren't quite eligible (like me, who has a maximum of 7 from a single region). Wiping that kinda screws me over. However a lot of the people who are eligible to challenge the Elite 4 deserve to be there, and I don't feel comfortable taking that right away.

The alternative would be to determine a baseline from the old system, such as "People with at least 75% of the old badges will still be eligible under the new system", or "People who have fully completed two regions". You get the idea.

Nope, not what I meant to say. A regular 4v4 pays $1,500/$750 and a 6v6 pays $2,000/$1,000. A gym battle should award a bonus to the winner, so that the payments for those same battle sizes would be $2,500/$750 and $3,000/$1,000 respectively.

This idea definitely needs to be developed properly like I said. We would definitely need to determine eligibility, so that everyone doesn't just stomp through the Dojo League when people are trying to learn.

 

Ok so since i started this massive mess in the previous thread time for me to comment here. First of all I am really pleased with all the ideas that have been generated and the quality of the conversation and how everyone has conducted themselves (with one exception).

Let me first of all say that I really like two ideas the Seasonal League and Towels Tournament - I think the two could be combined to Create a seasonal tournament where you qualify based on badge ownership granting URPG a regular tournament that it can base itself around. I also feel that in Harrys seasonal system people shouldn't be able to hold a second gym of an identical type. This would enable pretty much anyone to get the type of there choice.

However in regards to the practical implication of this I can see it being difficult and what were trying to do here is make it easier (in terms of actually being able to challenge gyms and work towards e4/champion ).

I am strongly in Favour of the 18 gyms of a single type and 1 gym leader who is difficult to face - What Ash said is right Gyms should be challenging I am significantly more proud of certain gym wins because of the quality of battler than i am of others. I challenged multiple times to Beat Roulette, Commba and Morru for there badges in the early days and to this day almost a year and a half since i joined those early gym wins are the most significant to me because they where the hardest. That's not to diminish anyone who's badge I have gained recently (The last badge i got was hannah's and i loved it since the last time i fought her in a competitive set-up was pwn dojo league and both of us have evolved our style so much since then that it was as fun nerve wrakcing and challenging as that battle)

I'm in agreement with everything Monbrey and chainy have said about the 18 gym setup - I especially want to push the idea of named Gyms with Named Badges (for instance if i got the grass gym i would potentially like to name it the Sossaria City Gym and have it give the Blossom Badge.)

I Would like to see the Gyms and Badges named by a single individual so that they keep a similar style and naming convention i feel it would help to unify the URPG Region and that New Names and Badge names would also help to differentiate the New system from the old and make it stand out.

I really Liked the idea of being able to story or art to get badges and was going to argue for it especially seeing as those who go via this route are unlikely to get far once they manage to take on the E4 and the champ just due to lack of battling experience. If they actually manage to succeed or do relatively well then its probably safe to assume that they would of beaten the gyms sooner or later anyway. I felt this ijected more RP into URPG and I am all for that. However then Monbrey opened his big mouth, and His right Gyms/E4/Champ show a clear line of progression with an end goal its clearly the progress path for URPG's competitive battlers and I think adding the ability to story or art for badges would just dilute that. The Story section already has the SWC and WWC as its main features and they themselves form a mini tournament and placing or winning one of these is progress for the writers of URPG. I think what could be done is actually to hold Art competitions in the Spring and Fall (eww americanisms are dirty) similar to the SWC and WWC and provide a clear line of progression there as well as more Park events with prizes for activity and quality to sort of implement more progression as opposed to it being a means to an end.

Im also for 2 League Organizers Monbrey is Head Ref and so should get ultimate final say but were proposing a system with stricter rules and tighter entry requirements requiring more active rollcall and checking system it should fall under his overview without being his burden. Or indeed a burden to any staff currently they all have jobs now and this would be essentially a new job rather the little bit of extra work that was involved before. I also feel that the league organizer would be responsible for investigating reports of bias or dodging and as well as organising tournaments and events for the gym system. I feel that Towel or Ash would be ideal candidates for this position both are very active as refs and both are very active and invested in the community. I Also feel the person holding this position WOULD NOT be a gym leader this is to prevent Bias on there part Monbrey would still be able to hold a gym as tho he gets final say he wont be directly involved in the day to day running of the league

Ok so this brings me to the Dojo League

YES! my early URPG Days and competing for the Dojo league are still one of my high points and my fondest and most treasured urpg memory was winning the dojo league i was involved in. I worked hard and battled every time i could to get better and secure more belts. It might be Nostalgia but using this as a training ground for potential gym leaders is an awesome idea - I dont feel that having been a member of a dojo league should The deciding factor in gym owenership or ability to challenge a gym but if you owned a dojo then your probably more adept at monotype battling than someone who didnt and so it could weigh into an LO's decision making without being the deciding factor.

A Dojo league should have its own LO whos job would be to encourage Activity and arrange events as well as approve lineups. The events would award prizes and be regular events and the prize simply could be a single rental mon of hard or under difficulty with 2 ems i feel this limits abuse also as for who is eligible for entry, The LO should have common sense and be able to apply this to who is eligible to join and which monotype dojo they take on a case by case basis (for instance almost everyone could be eligible for a fairy type dojo come gen 6

 

@Monbrey;

How about this as a form of compromise. Those who have 8 badges in one region can still challenge e4, as normal. However, any who have less (like you, most others), would be able to choose one region worth of badges that they want to import into the new system. For example, say I have my one badge. I may import that, and then already have electric badge for the new setup. If someone, for example, has four kanto badges, two sinnoh badges, they could choose to import either Kanto Or sinnoh. Obviously they would probably want to import Kanto, still leaving 13 badges for them to get. This should overall balance people who have Some badges, with those who already are e4 qualified. You said you don't want to take away people who are already able to e4 challenge, and I agree. However with this setup you still give those who have some badges a head start, and don't make their previous victories feel meaningless.

 

I think it's been addressed/rebutted in many posts already, but my main reason for wanting to automatically reward gym badges is because, as we seem to have no mentioned yet in this thread, people who have already defeated gyms have already received the TM that comes as a reward. This is essentially giving someone like myself, who has received the maximum 40 free TMs from gym battling to in turn, be allowed to get another 36 free TMs from the new system. I couldn't see any other reasonable or equitable method for compensating for this.

@Elamite @Monbrey

 

I think it's great that we're having a discussion and I'd like to address some concerns regarding the Seasonal League.


Seasonal League Adjustments

In regards to DR's concern about URPG members not able to become gym leaders if they want to, I would state that we, likely, don't have that problem now if we have gyms that still need leaders to fill them. I think that when the League Organizer determines who should become gym leader, he/she can take into account how many gyms the player already runs in addition to other factors such as experience, skills, and Pokemon lineup. We can encourage that members without a gym should have preference over members who already own a gym, but this should not be a hard and fast rule given the desirability to hire qualified leaders.

In regards to Ash's petition for a Dark Gym, it's always possible to add one to the OI League. It is a bit unusual, but is a simple solution.

Your concern about inactive gym leaders is valid, WTP. I do not feel the Seasonal Gym League will enlarge the problem and should work towards resolving it. Yes, there will be a small group of URPGers that will have two gyms. However, they will only be actively defending ONE gym at a time. That means, if they happen to be inactive, their inactivity will only affect one gym. And that inactivity could easily lead to them losing one or both gyms as determined by the League Organizer. The Seasonal System essentially cuts the number of gyms in half.

The Elite 4 requirements are adjustable, ATF. We can make it so you only need 16 badges from a single season to challenge the Elite 4 regardless of what Season it currently is. Or whichever way we want it.

In regards to Monbrey's Post:

• I agree that the "theme" of each gym is an important part of what makes the system fun. A Volcano Badge is much cooler to win than a generic Fire Badge.
• I agree that we should reduce the number of gyms.
• We can easily change which Regional Leagues make up each Season. I'm sure we can find the most "optimal" combination.
• And if we want, we can make it so URPGers can't own gym of the same type.
• Yeah, that's definitely a downside that I can't refute. If your goal is to earn every badge, then yes, you might have to wait six months.

In Regards to Badge Transition

I am very much against any idea that invalidates the badges already earned by URPGers. A lot of people put a lot of effort into those badges with many hours, days, and weeks spent training Pokemon, preparing teams, devising strategies, and enacting plans. I hardly think it's fair or right to, in one fell swoop, negate all the work that members have done to earn those badges.

Resetting is not an option. We should focus on ideas related to how to transition those badges to either new system.

 

Just like to clarify, it isn't as though you would just be handed the TMs. You'd still have to actually beat all 36 of the gym leaders to get the free TMs... also, so what if elite members have a reason to actually challenge the new gym league? Is that really a bad thing? It's not like a TM granted to someone for beating a gym (especially since they hopefully won't be as easy) is really that big of a deal...

However, I'm sure some simple catch could be thought of if this is really upsetting you. (Like," if you have E4 requirements from old system you can't earn TMs from new league")

 

As I and a few others had mentioned before, allowing those who have complete sets to be able to challenge the Elite Four. I'm against allowing them to challenge over and over and over again, especially in the event of a loss. It should be a one shot thing and not a permanent git. Yes, everyone who has earned even very few badges worked hard and should have something to show for it. However, the question is what can be done that is fair for everyone?

 

That is exactly why it is inequitable. So the older members went through the old gym system and collected the badges and TMs from the gyms and now they have to start over just like everyone else, but without access to a majority of the reward for doing so? That is why this, "simple catch", which I had already considered I did not propose. Also, I don't see how you could argue that this new league would really be any more difficult. There are only a handful of gyms whose types are repeated more than twice (Flying, Water, Fighting, Grass, Normal to name a few, if not all). All of those gyms are either already quite difficult to defeat or quite easy. This change will have a negligible effect on difficulty. To me, the only advantage visible in this change of structure is the shrinking of the system as to maintain active leaders. Even if there were a simple answer to the problem we have just discussed, there is no doubt in my mind that this change as a whole will be messy.

 

This is a good idea. I don't feel like re-earning TMs is a huge deal, but if someone is against it then this seems to hit the nail on the head.

I think it's quite simple. If you can challenge the Elite Four now, you can challenge it later. On the introduction of this new system, just have everyone who currently can challenge post in a "Legacy Challengers" thread which is then locked, and those guys have free access to the Elite Four without having to go through the new Gyms. I understand that the new system needs to be fair to everyone, and I agree, but nothing is more unfair than suddenly being unqualified to do something you were qualified to do four minutes ago. That's the education system's schtick, not ours.

Also, no on seasonal league, assuming I'm understanding it right. Gyms that are only open half the year is silly. A Tournament might be interesting, where the winner gets a free shot at the Champion or something, but I only want to give out my badges when someone beats me on my own field. That's the point of having a Gym.

 

Okay then just let them get the TMs if they beat the leader, I don't understand why you're getting upset over this. I don't even think that catch is necessary at all, I was suggesting it because you seemed to be totally against giving away "free-TMs" (which you never even explained why this would be bad). It's like you didn't even read my whole post.

This is honestly such a small detail compare to the fact when XY comes out we could easily have 5 leagues that are completely useless (if even one person from Kanto leaves and this is assuming we fill all of the XY gyms). Explain to me the point of having leagues with 5 members in them (see Sinnoh). I don't think anyone is ever going to take Oreburgh or Rustboro and definitely not both of them so those two leagues will forever be impossible to complete. People seem to hate the idea of having leaders with two gyms (which I think is an inferior overall fix than the one discussed here, but it is easier), so this is another alternative to fix the fact that the leagues are impossible to finish.

Also, since you're using numbers, add in the fact that with XY there will be 8 more gyms. Now Rock, Grass, Fighting, Electric all get another gym, which by the way matter how many they have because just saying >2 doesn't really do justice to the fact that Electric will have 5 gyms. Bug/Ice/Psychic gets added to that list. Now how does it look? That makes 8 /18 types. Plus, if we just keep this system you realize every generation this is just going to get worse right? I know that's long down the road, but what if Gamefreak releases more gyms like they did for B2W2? Then it'll get worse and worse and worse

I honestly do think that the average level of gym leader will increase, but even if it doesn't that isn't the point.

Honestly, people seem to dismissing this entire concept because they disagree with such small details and are missing the bigger picture. WTP, you say that the whole change will be messy, but what are we dealing with now? What's the point of challenging gym leaders just to hope that someone will one day take one of the crappy Rock gyms.

@We Taste Pies...

 

TED wanted to give input so he asked to post this here: Petalburg Woods Forum - View Single Post - URPG General Chat/Questions/Suggestions

 

36 Gyms is pretty ideal. Whether they'd all get filled or not would be the biggest problem, but I don't think that's actually so much of an issue.

Would get filled:

Bug, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Normal, Psychic, Steel, Water

Might:

Dark, Dragon, Ice, Poison, Rock, Fairy

Now they're obviously just based on assumptions considering the active numbers now and who already has what Gym type. If even a slightly greater interest in owning Gyms became a thing, I think that the 6 types under-represented would have at least one potential leader, if not the two.

If just 18 Gyms are had, I think some people who are great battlers would be subjected to unfair treatment. Ground for instance has two great Gym leaders, same with Water, Grass and numerous other types. With just 18 Gyms only one of the great defenders get a shot. Why cut two active and competent leaders down to one? It might mean the other less-common types would get filled quicker, but even that is uncertain.

Taking all this into consideration, 36 Gyms is really a very nice fit imo. People should definitely take this into account before voting in the poll at the top of this thread.

 

Is it possible to start with 18 first and see what gets filled and what's left and of course the active members that are still wanting gyms then if there's enough we can move to a 36 Gym League? That might be the best route to take to avoid some types with two Leaders while others have none.

 

This still doesn't satisfy some of the issues regarding badge transition. There must be an equivalency in terms of badges earned if we use the Typing League system, which faces this issue.

URPGers should receive badges in the new system equivalent to the badges they received in the old system. If the new system uses a different League structure, this needs to be resolved.

 

Well if people know that their 6/8 badges are going to be nullified soon, maybe they'll get off their butts and actually go challenge a Leader for a change. It'd certainly be a boost in activity, if nothing else.

Also, with Syn, 36 Gyms (as in two of each type) for sure. I'd hate to see all those skilled Trainers out of a job. Not that we really need to fight that battle as the poll is very very strongly in favour of 36 over 18.