Reducing Gyms

Not sure if this was addressed already (trying to read everything everyone wrote was giving me indigestion) but with this new system it seems like a Gym Leader will become more of a permanent fixture...by that I mean that once the new leaders are decided, it doesn't seem likely that they will be replaced from what I've read. While some may see this as good and a way to keep inexperienced people out of what is supposed to be a prestigious position, but I feel there should be at least some way to rise to the ranks of Gym Leader if you're not selected initially. This could be done a number of ways such as tournaments, special battles etc. Again, this may have been addressed already, but it was important to me that this issue in particular was cleared up.

 

Swifty as with anything there will be a natural Ebb and Flow im sure people will come and go and as people go inactive or move on away from urpg gyms will open up. I think im starting to agree with 18 gyms more than 36 as for time zone related issues we do have forum battles for a reason and they area doable if not a little frustrating from time to time and if thats the only viable way for a battle to go ahead i think that its a gym leaders responsibility to go for it since they have to defend there gym from any and all challenges by any means possible (that includes horrendous amounts of hax as well as forum battles if needed). I do feel that there should be a time limit on such forum battles to stop one party simply going inactive as a method of not taking the loss (by inactive i meen simply just not posting

 

open gyms? by my count, there are seven gyms open out of 47. that's under 15%, and there is value in having gyms open for new members to apply for. we've been regularly fluctuating between 40-45 filled gyms for a long time. anybody waiting for one of the seven gyms to be filled can challenge any of the other 40 that they don't have.

i don't see any evidence to believe that we're seeing less gym battles than before, i'm getting plenty of challenges for pastoria and i have't heard anyone else struggling from a lack of gym battles. we're in the time of year where school has gotten into full swing and it's normal for activity in general to recede as people deal with schoolwork. it's been no more than standard seasonly fluctuation from my point of view, though you can always go through ref logs and check the number of gym battles if you want to make sure.

and i don't see how reducing gyms overall matches up with more gym battles. reducing gyms is only reducing the number of available options. even if you follow the misguided logic that having a greater percentage of gyms filled will boost activity, 40 gyms > 16 gyms

also, something about a low blow? don't get mad when your proposal lacked any supporting reasons for change, which is a key component of any proposal. there's no point to offering a guideline when the original concept doesn't have any described support. and, i offered my reason for your proposal being pointless in the second paragraph, but i guess you forgot about it when your feelings got hurt.

 

Your post is completely inaccurate. It's pretty obvious there are less gym battles happening nowadays. Gym battles happened multiple times a week, and even multiple times in a day up to two years ago. Now, there are roughly two gym battles per week. Sure, some can be attributed to the summer ending and people playing the games, but those reasons are more excuses than anything. If the system isn't changed, I see no increase in the occurence of gym matches before the summer. A pretty sad fate for a once so active community.

Saying we now have 40 filled gyms is being very generous. Most regions have about 4 active leaders, and that's defining active as "checking the forums once every few days" and nothing more. Take Johto for instance. In the whole region there is two reasonably active leaders: Akinai and MuddyMudkip. This kind of activity is pretty consistent within every single league, so yeah, I'd put it closer to 20 active gyms if anything.

Just challenge the other 40 gyms? Not really an option when you need certain badges. I've needed 5 badges for months, and there are so many people int he same situation as me waiting on inactive gym leaders or those who refuse to let others challenge their gym. Not only is this frustrating, it's actually quite disheartening to know that making actual progress with gyms is pretty close to impossible.

Also, your posts towards DR are verging on aggressive. You're both obviously entitled to your opinions.

 

I'd just like to point out a few fallacies in your logic. First off, on the topic of open gyms, as Syn started to say above me, it doesn't matter what percentage of open gyms are open, what matters is that there are gyms no one is ever going to take and people need to get badges from those gyms. It doesn't matter if 5/8 of the Sinnoh Gyms are open because chances are no one is ever going to take Oreburgh gym. I've had 6/8 of the badges for Sinnoh for the longest time, but they're worthless because I can't complete the set. And what's the point of trying for the other badges to complete them and then just wait for someone to hopefully pick up one of the vacant gyms in that league?

Also, just because a Gym has a leader, doesn't mean that's necessarily a good thing. A lot of the gyms are held right now by inexperienced members and inactive members (as Syn said above). There's just an overall decline in the level of quality of the gym league.

You brought up a good point that I'd like to address now, though. I don't think the point of refurbishing the Gym League is to create more gym battles. The purpose is to create better gym battles. I don't think that noobies spamming gym leaders to lose and make more profit is the point of the Gym League, which is what it's become. You say you get a lot of challenges from members, but looking at your stats, a lot of the battles are simply challenges from newer members who honestly don't have much of a chance against you. People just challenge gyms because it gives them more money, not because they are aspiring to complete a set of badges. I don't really feel as though that's the point.

Also, this isn't even the worst current scenario. There are leaders who have gyms just because when they get challenged they make a bigger profit. (Note: I'm not blaming members for doing this, they are simply playing the hand they've been given. I'm blaming the mentality that gyms are just faster ways to make a profit.). This, coupled with the impossibility of completing a set of badges, are the primary reasons for this change (at least for me).

On that note though, if you think about it, we'd be creating 18 new gyms instead of 8 new gyms (the new XY ones): we would in fact be creating more gym battles. You assumed that every member has 0 badges when you said people can challenge 40 gyms, but that's clearly not the case for many members.

The above points are why I'm suggesting removing the bonus payout for Gym challenges, specifically losses by challengers. I don't want to be too mean to Gym Leaders and say remove their bonus for winning, because then Gym Leaders have no incentive to do these challenges. However, this runs the risk of newer members being encouraged by Gym Leaders to challenge to give them a bigger payout. I've played with the possibility of having normal payouts and a reward system for members who do well in their gyms, but there also needs to be a way to check for abuse. If anyone has any suggestions on this, I'd be happy to hear them.

Oh, also I encourage members who have doubts to post. I want to hear concerns people have about the system we're talking about because it will help in the long run!!!

Missed Swifts post so here's a response to that:

I agree that this system does give the concept that gyms would be more permanent, but I don't think that is really different than the way it is now. A lot of gym leaders have held their gyms for a long time (See: Gun6, FD, TED, etc.). As Airik said, people quit URPG and openings will occur. I think that the longer someone is in a gym is usually a good thing (more experience, better Pokemon). The concept here is that gyms would be reserved for people who are able to handle the threats they would face. I think more thorough activity checks could help alleviate this as well, something that I would love to hear input on if anyone has any ideas.

 

Probably a terrible suggestion for one reason or another so feel free to throw rocks at me and burn me at the stake but here goes...:

Maybe becoming a leader should have some sort of entrance test against the League Organizer or another Gym Leader or something to raise the bar of what a Gym Leader should be.

A required waiting period between challenging the same gym twice could help reduce pay out spamming, but I'm not sure how enforceable that'd be and people could always challenge different gyms during that period. Not sure how bad a thing gym-challenge spamming is though...I personally don't do it, and I see how it undermines the system, but it's the same as spamming regular battles or basics with a higher payout. In all honesty, though, I understand where you're coming from. I personally don't challenge Gyms I dont think I can defeat and I dont even want a Gym atm because I doubt I could defend it very well.

My last suggestion for you based on your post is to make alternate ways of obtaining Gym Badges for Gyms that are vacant. Writing for them could be an option maybe? (don't shoot me if that was a horrid idea) Of course this would only apply to Gyms that are vacant and have been for awhile...

These are just suggestions that could improve the existing system should we decide to keep it. TBH, I really agree with the points you've made so far, smores. Lemme know how despicable my ideas are what you think of my suggestions.

 

I'm seeing a lot of great responses that I didn't think I'd see.

I'm sure no one wants to see another rant and rave from me so here it is:

Gyms should no longer just be handed out. Even if there is no new system put in place, the Gym Leaders need to be evaluated. No. Being a Gym Leader doesn't mean you're stuck at it. And yes, people do come and go all the time. I'm the perfect example of it and I'm working hard on sticking around for a long while. But those who are coming and go quite frequently and squeaking by at the last minute for a roll call is ridiculous and needs to be handled. It has come to my attention that it happens quite often and now it should be taken care of for this system as well as the new system if it comes around.

Let's cover Dojos real quick. I was poking around the other day and I saw the Dojo League and just like the current Gym system, it too is not complete. If we want to use a Dojo system then perhaps it can be used as a prerequisite for challenging Gyms or used by newcomers to take on challenges by newcomers. However, you cannot use the system if it cannot be complete because we don't want two incomplete systems like we have now.

It was stated above to allow those who have a complete set to challenge E4 and Champ and be able to re-challenge if they lose....I don't see how it's fair to give them more than one shot under rules of an older system. Yes it was earned and they have the right to challenge at any point but in no way should they reserve the right to take on the E4 if they lose as many times it takes without having to complete the new system while everyone else who didn't fit the requirements are having to start all over. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Ahem. Popping in to post an idea that I had while reading through Blue's post, regarding subsidizing newbie Trainers who want a Gym.

I highly suggest that all rental Pokemon be given a free 10-15k in moves/abilities (of their choice), which do not transfer upon the acquisition of said rental Pokemon, unless the price of the move/ability is paid in full at the time of the switch. All other purchased moves would, save for the "starter moves".

As most new Trainers start out with only a few owned Gym Pokemon, and thereby have more rentals, this would give them a fair shot while not carrying over should the Leader become more active, and also applies to everyone (preventing unfairness or bias) without the possibility of abuse by already-affluent/strong Gym Leaders.

Also another idea. It's been brought up (and I think this is true, too), that most people do not usually challenge Gyms which they think they can't beat. In order to combat this, why not have semi-annual/quarterly tournaments or events in which both Gym Leaders and Challengers cannot use EMs? The prizes could be similar to a regular Gym battle, or possibly include 1/2 a badge (badge fragment?) meaning that the challenger would need to challenge 2x the number of Gyms in order to access the E4.

 

A lot of this seems pretty tl;dr worthy, so I'm just going to sum up my opinion on the issue:

- I am not eager to depart from the current Gym system, but I certainly am not opposed to the point where I would defend it.

- All people who are already eligible to challenge the E4 by way of completing a SINGLE region should stay as such, if they already have an E4 win. If they do not have an E4 win, they must have 2 full regions to remain eligible or, more obviously, be an E4 member them self. Lets be honest, getting one region of badges was never that much of a big deal.

- That being said, the new E4 requirements will require a badge of each type to have been awarded for eligibility.

- I favor the 36 gym approach, but I think that second gyms of a type should not be opened until the initial 18 gyms are filled.

- The above being said, if this change is to be made, I believe it should be delayed until a few months into the Gen VI release, to give time for a Fairy gym leader to be properly prepared.

- Anyone with a complete region of badges will automatically be awarded with the badges of the corresponding types from that region. For instance, someone who finished Kanto will have a set of Rock, Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, Psychic, Fire, and Ground badges. If there are multiple regions completed with overlapping types, the badge of the second set will be awarded.

- Essentially, as the above demonstrated, I think the 2 sets of gyms (the first 18 and the last 18) would fill some kind of hierarchy. The first set being the "greater" and the second being the "lesser" gyms. The first set to be awarded in the above example would be the, "lesser" gyms, regardless of whether or not that "lesser" league is filled with gym leaders.

- With this hierarchy, the "lesser" leader is at any time allowed to challenge the "greater" leader for his/her spot, with proper approval from the official in charge of the gym(s). Although this is somewhat of a throwback to the gym leadership challenges of old, I would prefer this right to challenge be more liberally rewarded that it was in the past.

I think that sums up everything I've thought of. Hopefully I spelled it out well enough ^_^;

 

I can agree to a "lesser"/"greater" for the 36 Gym system but of course I don't agree with 2 things you've said but I'll only cover one.

I hate to do it but I'm going to use myself as an example because I'm the perfect example for this:

I in no way am close to completing a region. I do have 8 badges though. 4 from Kanto, 3 Johto, and 1 Hoenn. I quit trying to earn badges some time ago because I would always come and go, and you WTP should remember my random disapparences. Everyone who knows me and has seen me battles know I'm not the best around so personally, I worked my butt off and earned those badges, even though I quit trying for them ages ago. Why do I need to give them up and not get anything from them when others should be handed new badges for new system? How is that fair? Because they completed a region automatically entitles them to basically a free ride? We have all worked hard for what we have but others are just better and acquired more. Mlouden just received his first gym badge. Is he going to get anything for it? What you do for one ground you should do for another.

 

Well, seeing as the number of gyms is being reduced, I think it would be difficult to justify giving badges to everyone for each type of gym they finished, so I thought completed regions would be a good benchmark. Also, seeing as a region is the standard for challenging the Elite Four as it stands now, I do believe that it certainly seems to me to be a way to differentiate between who gets awarded badges automatically or who doesn't. If you don't agree, I'd much rather just give nobody any automatic badges at all.

Also, please, do explain what the second thing you disagree with is.

 

I'm all for rewarding those who have completed regions but I don't agree to handing out badges to them. Is there an alternative?

I really don't want to comment on the 2nd thing that I disagree with because I think I read the other part wrong. Can you explain what you were talking about regarding E4 challenges?

 

I discussed a bit of this in our Skype Chat, but I'm going to put my thoughts down here. Please note these are only my thoughts and not set in stone. I think it's good to have discussion and we should strive to come up with viable ideas that could improve the URPG.

I don't know if it's desirable to reduce the number of gyms, but if we're having difficulties finding gym leaders, then that's certainly a good way of solving the issue. No one should have to wait for a badge just because there isn't someone to defend the gym.

That being said, I strongly disagree with eliminating the League System in favor of the Typing System. I think it eliminates a part of URPG tradition, poses a slight headache in transitioning, and reduces the "flavor" of what gyms should be about.

Instead, I'd like to play off an earlier idea someone mentioned about Seasons. I think that if we want to reduce the number of open gyms, seasons is the way to go.


Seasonal League System

In this system, the leagues are divided into two seasons: Winter League and Summer League.

Winter League: October, November, December, January, February, March
Summer League: April, May, June, July, August, September

Each Seasonal League will be composed of three Regional Leagues based on the current system.

Winter: Johto, Sinnoh, Kalos
Summer: Kanto, Hoenn, Unova

The Regional Leagues are ONLY open during their respective Season. So Johto, Sinnoh, and Kalos will only be active during the Winter Season and Kanto, Hoenn, and Unova will only be active during the Summer Season. The Orange Islands will be active year-round.

This, in effect, means that only 29 Gyms will be open at any point in time (24 Normal League Gyms and 5 OI Gyms). Badges may only be earned from open gyms.

How does this reduce gyms?

Gym Leaders will be allowed to apply for two gyms, BUT they must each be in a different Season. Thus a URPGer can be a Summer Gym Leader and a Winter Gym Leader but not be a Gym Leader of two Summer Gyms or two Winter Gyms.

This, in theory, would quickly eliminate empty gyms.

To address the concern that gym leaders will lose their gyms:

Gym Leaders will be allowed to KEEP their gyms through the inactive season. So if you own a Winter Gym and the Winter Season comes to a close, you can keep your gym throughout the Summer Season. You won't be able to have battles with that gym, but when the next Winter Season starts, you'll be allowed to continue defending that gym.

However, we will hold Rolecalls before the start of each Season. If a Gym Leader is not active and misses the Rolecall, that gym may be filled by another URPGer. Similarly, League Organizers can remove a Gym Leader if they determine a leader is inactive during an Active Season.


Seasonal League Elite 4 Rules

As has been mentioned, requiring only eight badges is too easy a requirement. As such, I propose that a member may challenge the Elite 4 if they have 16 league badges. These badges must be from gyms that are represented in the current active season.

So if you want to challenge the Elite 4 during the Winter, you must have 16 Winter Badges. If you want to challenge the Elite 4 during the Summer, you must have 16 Summer Badges. Once you start an Elite 4 Challenge, you no longer have to meet the requirement unless you must start over after losing to the Champion. So if you challenge the Elite 4 at the end of Summer, you don't need to earn the Winter badges unless you lose to the Champion and must restart the challenge process.

Ironically, I'd probably count OI Badges as badges that count towards BOTH Seasons. This probably makes them very valuable.


Conclusion

This idea allows us to retain our current system while reducing gym size. It also solves many of the transition issues since all badges and gyms, more or less, stay the same.

If we're concerned this is too many gyms, we can increase the number of Seasons to three or implement a rotating Regional League order. If we want more gyms, we can use a rotating Regional League order or make an additional region or two year-round.

If we're concerned that the Summer League will be more active than the Winter League, we can shift the months they're active.

Let me know what you think.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. That being said, I do have some questions/input that, upon clarification, would help me make a decision on the subject. Spoilered based on each section of my thoughts. I also should specify that I speak as a member of URPG, not as someone with authority in the battle section.

One Gym League vs. Two Gym Leagues

Spoiler

To be honest, I find that the only way this can successfully work is to have a 2-tiered gym system. The first tier acts as a Dojo League - completely irrelevant in regards to obtaining badges to challenge the elite four, but it provides the training necessary for someone to become a full-fledged leader. One of the largest disagreements, as far as I can tell, is about new players that want gyms but don't have the experience to compete with other battlers. The Dojo League provides this necessary experience without handing out badges and is reserved for newer battlers/people testing strategies and teams for a new gym type. This also allows for LO's to witness your mastery of a certain type so that they can place you accurately in the first tier positions.

This second-tier league could also allow for appropriate gym ownership challenges. If someone has had success in a Dojo, they have the right to challenge the leader for his/her gym. Obviously up to the discretion of the LO, and this should only ever be applicable in cases where the leader cannot lead as effectively as the "rising star." A solid gym leader should never be challenged for leadership unless they are doing a poor job defending their gym. This keeps the fresh meat on top and allows for the swap-out of leaders as they become inactive. Not necessarily a monopoly of the veterans either, as any person who has proven their dominance (in one way or another) can potentially take over the gym.

Old Badges

Spoiler

Kind of in agreement with WTP on this one. People who had a full set of badges auto-obtain the new badges of the respective types of the region. If multiple regions, badges still overlap. However, there are several people with near complete regions or 5-6 from each region that might go to waste, and I'm not sure how I feel about that either. Like WTP said, I don't think that each individual badge should be automatic transfers unless the region set is complete, but I don't think that they should go to complete waste while others who have been around longer essentially clear half of the league instantly.

Role of LOs

Spoiler

So uhh, what's the role of LOs in this new system? Are there several? One for each league?

Either way, an LO should be active. Not just active in the community, but an active league organizer. They should try and keep checkups on leaders, give advice where necessary, and overall be beneficial to the leaders. They should also be able to determine a gym leader's skills and assess them appropriately. Don't just accept/deny leaders and approve/decline WCs!

E4 Requirements

Spoiler

To be honest, I find it the most fitting to obtain all 18 badges. If we want to make it a bit easier/realistically achievable for strong but not invincible battlers, 15 seems like a reasonable number. Anybody that already is E4 with less than 2 complete set of badges adding up to at least 15 (nobody iirc) or anybody that has already challenged and won against one or more elite four member should be exempt from this, assuming they still have less than 15 badges. If they only have one complete set/not 15/18 individual types, they should still have to battle against the new leaders until they reached 15/18. At this point, they can challenge the E4. For anybody with two sets, this should only be a few more badges to acquire, which they should have no problem with now that there would be active leaders (and they should be able to beat these leaders anyway, assuming they have any real chance at taking down the E4!)

EDIT: Huh, just reread WTP's post and realized that I basically said everything he said. Welp.

 

I would support this 100%. I really like the idea, and it seems to address most if not all concerns people were having before. The only issue I can personally see is the possibility that some Gyms still won't be filled, and even that isn't a huge deal since the required badges to challenge the E4 could come from multiple regions now. (This is regarding HKim's idea)

Also, now that I think about it, if someone has two Gyms in separate seasons, I would think it only fair to be able to replace them should someone else who doesn't have a Gym want the position and qualify for it. I also still think an entrance battle should be required to become a Gym Leader. Not sure how that would work, but it would make for higher-quality Gym Leaders. (whatever that means) =P

 

I agree with everything you just said Kim, except the 16 badge amount needed. Despite me being in Urpg for three months, and honestly/hopefully, not being That bad of a trainer, I, myself have only been able to win one badge. The seasons seem to make alot of sense, as in a way it would half the amount of necessary gym leaders that we would need. for OI, they could just count as normal badges, or however they count now (I've never actually even challenged an OI member, so I'm unsure). Anyway, the rest of the ideas seem quite smart, and fix the Problem (not enough leaders), while keeping the Overall idea (gym leagues like the games) intact.

 

The problem that I see with it is that it's taking away from those wanting a Gym, like many have people have stated that a big concern, and that there could still be the chance of open Gyms and people still wanting for someone to take over. I like the idea of Seasonal Leagues but the issues still stay the same in my opinion. You claim that someone can claim two Gyms as long as they're in different seasons yet I've looked at the Gyms and I see a couple of people are already doing that as well as holding an Elite 4 position. That is think is unfair and needs to be addressed as well.

 

I dont think anyone has two Gyms unless one of them is OI which would be open year-round anyway...OI doesnt even count as a league anyway

 

I just read this entire thread.

Honestly, I think that if this is implemented, ALL badges should be wiped. Members who have qualified for the Elite Four get ONE run through the Elite Four before needing to requalify under the new system. My reasoning for this is that as many have said, some badges have just been handed out easily by new gym leaders. To anyone who thinks that the requirements for challenging the Elite Four are too difficult, that's the point. The Elite Four are supposed to take tons and tons of work to get to. I'm not sure whether I like the seasonal league or 18/36 gyms better atm, but the previous logic applies to BOTH.

I also agree that gyms should be harder to get and not just for anyone who wants them, but also that there should be some way people can practice for them. A Dojo League seems like a good idea. The tricky part is determining who can participate. Say a certain member joined two years ago, played for a month, then has been on rarely, if at all, since then. Could they participate, and if so for how long?

Another thing I'd like to say is that if we do the seasonal gym thing, DARK GYM NEEDS TO HAPPEN. This is actually one of the things making me lean towards fixed amounts of each type.

Rollcalls should be more frequent (or equivalently handled somehow), but the idea mentioned somewhere about only being 2-3 days I definitely would say no to. Sometimes there's a 2-3 day period someone is busy with whatever irl thing. It doesn't mean they're not one of the most active members the other 360 or so days of the year.

Uh, maybe more on this when it isn't 2 AM.

Oh, one last thing. If OI becomes important, make Trovita actually hard. Okay, I shouldn't talk after losing to it twice. Perhaps random type instead of challenger chooses? Challenger chooses means if you have two types that your one Pokémon has a counter to, your badge is theirs.

 

I believe the entire point of reducing the number of gyms is to fill all the gyms and avoid the impact that inactive gym leaders have on the system. I'm pretty sure allowing 2 gyms to individuals would kind of defeat the purpose, or at least not solve the problem in any substantive way.