Reducing Gyms

They evolve at the start of the turn, at a higher priority than most other things, and then they still get to attack. But choosing when to evolve is part of it - its a tactical decision. Like the difference between Ampharos and Mega Ampharos vs an Azumarill or something.

I don't see why they should be in lineups they don't belong in at all.

 

Fair enough. I don't really care either way, just thought it ought to be addressed.

 

Just throwing this idea out there. If Badge Transfer or removal is a problem. I believe we should let the individual themselves decide. By this I mean, URPGers who have battled and got a full league of the old Badge System may earn the "Elite 4" ticket to challenge them. Therefore, this would save the aggro of trainers who do not want to restart their leagues. Like most of the older players who do not want to. All of these URPGers would have to apply for their Tickets with a list of badges they had received from their starts to be eligible for the Elite 4 Ticket.

Then, there are the URPG players who want to start a fresh. Therefore, URPGers should be able to decide to restart completely. Say, I tossed in all of my 30+ badges and wanted to complete the new league from scratch. Once you do this, you cannot go back. You would also not be eligible to challenge the Elite 4 if you traded in for a fresh start. This could propose some activity in the Gym League. Personally it would be more of a challenge because most Gym Leaders these days are up to date on strategies, and everybody else's usual Pokemon Battling tactics. To apply for a fresh start, I would propose posting in a thread you are wiping clean of your old badges to battle in the new league. Times change in URPG, but this is what I recommend to settle both sides.

- Yes, some people would be ahead of everybody else. But it takes real courage, skills, and strategies to start a fresh and boot out 32 new gyms of each type. Therefore, all the updated Gyms like Fairy / Dark would finally get a chance to debut in the URPG, effectively.

What does everybody else think?

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Wildcards - I believe they should be removed. With what WTP said a few pages back. Yes, I do feel sorry for you Chainy, but I also believe in you. Similar to smores. Gym Leaders should battle with pride of their type. Same old Pokemon do appear. I mean when I ran Mossdeep, I used to think; omg Heracross again, or omg Houndoom again, or Tyranitar! It takes skill as a Gym Leader to own types who prose a threat. I don't hear Brock, Misty, etc moaning about that Bulbasaur that came through from the beginning. Yes, they are computer opponents, but it's the same thing. Believe in yourselves guys, nobody will win with a negative attitude.

Rentals of Existing Leaders - All Pokemon TMs/EMs/Dreamworlds should be refunded at the Pokemart for the existing price they trade at. I know some people brought Rentals when the prices were higher, but I do not want to go back in time to recalculate. I know it's unfortunate who has their Rentals removed. But, it's protocol.

Applying for the New Gym League - I believe the number of Pokemon should remain the same, I have not seen it being a big problem. Most leaders do rotates, but not worth it with situational Pokemon. Anyways, applying for the new Pokemon Gyms, I believe applicants should at least own 3 of their type, because it would phase out the new starters. I want to promote new members to train a whole lot before applying for a Gym. I applied when I like joined 2 months for Mahogany, I had owned only Cloyster. I still have that Cloyster today, but I had no strategy back then! We are all a Team in URPG we should help each other.

Gym TMs - Should remain the same.

Payouts - I think Monbrey had this covered.

Gym Applicants who missed out on the Gym - I believe they should be able to challenge for them Gym with the old system, it must be with the League Head's permission.

Yeah, just tossing a few things out there,

chao.

 

The other thing to consider about lineup expansion is that while not that many, there are some new Pokémon (if you're not Bug/Ground, who TrollFreak gave a big "Screw you" to). Also it helps offset the loss of a Wildcard by giving more options to deal with specific threats and such.
@Fossil Fusion; Does that mean that in order to reset my badges I'd lose my spot in the Elite Four until I requalified?

 

Ash, I doubt it. This is Gym Reduction, not Elite 4 boot out.

 

But the now empty Wildcard spot already gives you another option to deal with specific threats and such.

E4 definitely wouldn't be booted out. You're still the 4 most qualified battlers and would be given those spots regardless of badges.

 

I think bumping up to 14 would be a nice number considering the loss of WCs and every type having between 1-5 or so new options.

 

Just like to point out the terrible logic here. IF there was a Pokemon that helped me cover a specific threat well, I'd have run it over the wildcard in the first place.... Wildcards aren't just a novelty, to have just for the sake of having one. They help(ed) cover the weaknesses of the type.

You said 12 was a good number, but why is it a good number (besides the fact that it's the current number)? Gyms used to only have 6 Pokemon right? Since there's been such a huge dicksucking for tradition in this thread why don't we just bring it back to that? That number at least makes contextual sense since that's the number Gamefreak gave us as to mean a lineup.

The lineups get expanded as there are more threats for people to deal with, as more viable Pokemon get released. I don't think it should be about using more of the cool Pokemon that your type has, making it irrelevant that water has 50+ pokemon and Dragon has 13. Also, there is no limit to the copies of Pokemon you can have in a gym, which means Dragon wouldn't be limited to a 13 Pokemon lineup if the number was expanded beyond that. Plus, (I know you don't like this idea, but bear with me) I honestly think creating a capless lineup would more dissuade just adding more Pokemon to your lineup. Without a number to reach leaders wouldn't want to create a "full" lineup.

My Point: I'm still in favor of capless, but I think the best negotiation to that is at least an increase. My reason is simply that I don't think 12 Pokemon is sufficient to cover all of the threats that will be available with Gen VI, especially now that leaders are losing a huge asset in Wildcards (regardless of whether you think leaders should've had this asset to begin with).

 

I don't think it really makes sense to make an argument that it should, "offset", the removal of WCs. Not to mention, I'd be hard pressed to think of a type that has many more than 12 competitive Pokemon, at least not without some strategic overlap. Not that I would have a problem with an expansion of lineups, but I don't see any particular reason to do so either. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Still not in favour of capless. Don't even have to negotiate if I don't want to, because the whole discussion DOES regard what I think.

But having said that, you've made some valid arguments for an extended lineup, and it's worth considering.

This is exactly what I'm looking at with my Magmortar currently. It previously had two key moves that couldn't really be covered by my other Pokemon - Psychic and Thunderbolt. I now have Rotom-H, Chandelure, and will soon have Delphox which can all do a more viable job in that role. The strategic overlap means that Magmortar is no longer required in my lineup, because its no longer one of the 12 most competitively viable Fire Pokemon.

 

Eh, I disagree with this logic. Gyms don't necessarily need to be consistent of the 12 most competitive Pokemon. For example, I wouldn't say that Parasect is at all a competitive Pokemon, it gets ohko'd by a plethora of things and can really only spore, which is easily blocked by sub. However, in my gym, it fills a great niche of being a Kingdra counter in rain because Kingdra just gets terrible coverage. Like honestly, it just all lines up for Parasect against Kingdra, something like dry skin +lefties lets it just barely survive ice beam x2 which means i can always get a spore off. So, at times it's better to have "non-competitive" Pokemon to help cover otherwise large weaknesses in your lineup. I think these utility Pokemon are more what the expansion of the lineup would be for. Just to prove my point, I'll list 12 Bug Pokemon I think are "more competitive" than Parasect:

Volcarona
Durant
Accelgor
Scizor
Volbeat
Yanmega
Scolipede
Armaldo (in rain)
Galvantula
Venomoth
Heracross
Crustle

So right there, I shouldn't have Parasect in my lineup according to your logic. But out of all of those, Parasect is the best Kingdra counter so I use it.

This kind of addresses Monbrey's point about multiple copies of the same Pokemon. If Parasect was my Kingdra and my Blastoise counter, I could still have an extra Parasect if my first one died, which means I could still counter Blastoise. That makes the second one have value even if it covers the same threats.

 

I still don't see how Parasect makes that huge of a difference against Kingdra... I mean, Kingdra can just Substitute as necessary and can't really become slower than Parasect. That and it handily 3HKOs. So if not for Kingdra, for what? Also, 1 gym that feels it could find a 13th useful Pokemon doesn't really constitute a change, me thinks. I'm likely to think that the decision maker, who is already less open to the idea than myself won't be much more sympathetic.

 

All right, so. Coming at this with a uniquely Rocky perspective.

Aerodactyl, Aggron, Archeops, Cradily, Gigalith, Gliscor, Lunatone, Omastar, Rampardos, Relicanth, Rhypherior, Tyranitar

According to Smogon, the only ones that are really competitive are (in order of viability) Ttar/Gliscor (OU), Rhyperior (UU), Aggron/Aerodactyl/Archeops (RU).

In URPG, Cradily becomes viable at the cost of Aggron, Rhyperior (due to massive, common weaknesses) and Aerodactyl (due to mediocre non-speed stats) becoming niche.

Everything else in my lineup is entirely niche.

Omastar has potential for sweeping (Shell Smash + White Herb), but easily gets shot down regardless, because, in practice, I've noticed that even a boosted Hydo Pump or Ice Beam is hard-pressed to OHKO the majority of Pokemon sent to counter my team.

Even if I had a Kabutops, I suspect that it would fall under the same category as Omastar.

Lunatone's the only non-Gliscor Baton Passer Rock has access to.

Aggron is a universal counter, assuming I can predict the opponent.

Rhyperior falls under the same category as Omastar. Except if Rhy really gets going he's generally challenging to stop.

So now that I've illustrated how the only current Rock-types that are truly viable are Tyranitar, Cradily and Archeops (considering the loss of Gliscor), let's look at the new additions.

Barbaracle - An ubercharged Kabutops. Looks promising. Good coverage, and decent stats. Tough Claws makes it even more dangerous.

Tyrantum - An ubercharged Rampardos. Looks promising. Is a Dragon, and doesn't have any crippling 4x weaknesses (!!!!!)

Aurorus - Love it to death. But it has 2 crippling 4x weaknesses to common offensive/defensive types. Epic dragon counter, but dragons don't show up very often. Plus I have Cradily for Kingdra, already. Niche at best.

Carbink - Legendary defenses. Otherwise weak, but useful for setting Screens or stalling/sweep stopping. Niche at best.

By the looks of it, there are only 6 Rock Pokemon that could be considered competitive, and each have flaws. The only way to counter this is through niche Pokemon, which are basically only useful for disposing of certain and specific threats. Aggron to counter a massive sweep, Aerodactyl to phase/hax, Carbink or Shuckle to stall, Aurorus for Dragons, Probopass and Sudowoodo for Waters, Solrock for Sun, Armaldo and Relicanth for Rain, Onix for Eviolite and more.

That's way more than 12.

 

ugh. okay this has been one of my
points the whole time, that this isn't about just addressing a specific type and how it could use more than 12 Pokemon in its lineup. the only thing I was addressing in your post is your claim that you only need the 12 most competitive Pokemon in your gym and I was making the point that sometimes specific threats call for options outside of that 12.

Also, not at all the time to talk about this, but Parasect can break a kingdra sub. meaning that in dppt it has to either attack me and get spore'd or sub and the sub gets shattered. the difference between a 3hko and a 2hko is massive here. if it could 2hko Parasect it could just ice beam on my send first and then Ice beam again. But it can't do that. Also, try to have some faith in me that I know what I'm talking about, I've had my gym for quite a while.... ( also can't become slower than parasect? have you never heard of stun spore?)

but back on topic, I never wanted to say that just because I need 13 Pokemon that we need to expand it and it's mildly irritating that you clearly only read my last post out of context (even though I was quoting you!!!!). My arguments are just that sometimes there are specific Pokemon that help cover specific threats that would otherwise give you trouble and as more Pokemon get released there are more of these specific threats. naturally, in order to defend the gym against these new threats we need more options to use against them. Also several gym leaders have said in this thread that an expansion of the lineup would help them, even before gliscorman. so please don't try to single me out like that because it's just false.

Also no offense but if you don't have an opinion on the matter why are you consistently arguing against me and pointing out flaws in my logic ( that are not even looking at the whole argument)? I mean I'm all for people being the devils advocat, but in a discussion that clearly has two sides already I don't think we need that, thank you though.

 

I'm playing devil's advocate to both sides because I wish for us to reach the ideal choice for URPG. Honestly, I think the best way to resolve this is, instead of a few, actively debating interested parties discussing this, I believe we should try to involve as many gym leaders as possible in this discussion, as opposed to just the 4-5 that have been more active in this discussion (In other words, thank you for so attentively being involved).

EDIT: Also, I think I understood your point, I'm just unsure of your example. I just want to be sure we're on the same page.

 

Ya actually, thinking it over, I'd like to retract that statement. I don't really feel that way. I'm under the opinion that discussion leads to a better solution. Sorry for that.

 

My thoughts at the moment come in the form of questions.

Are gyms supposed to be challenging, or an obstacle to be overcome however?
Is it okay for people to be able to beat a gym purely by Type spam, like STAB Acrobatics spam on a Fighting gym?
How much of a difficulty jump should there be between qualifying to challenge the Elite Four, and actually playing against them?

I have to admit that I can't find a good reason for all gyms to have larger rosters. Some seem to only need the same few mons generally, and then have room for flavour, backup counters and specialist counters. Some need backup counters or specialist counters like others need wildcards, to stop someone sweeping through with a particular mon or typing with little effort or strategy.
So I think it comes down to what the League system is exactly for.
What does it do, and is it fun?

 

This is starting to go in circles in now. I think most points have been raised and discussed, let's let the staff finish everything now.​

 

Don't sweat it =P

I think the issue of expanding Gym Leaders could require a bit more redress. I would agree, however, that this isn't the place for it. I think it'd be nice for us to have some sort of, "Town Hall,"-esque meeting between some interested gym leaders and Monbrey on AIM.