Why can't you use the new calc on the ref test?

A story: My Mom once worked at a Target, back when the electronic price scanners at the registers were brand new. One day there was a malfunction, so the scanners stopped working. Her line was the longest of all the lines, but it was moving faster than all the others because she was the only cashier who knew how to type in the code of each item quickly and accurately.

This story applies perfectly to this situation. If a Ref is ever without access to the new calculator, perhaps due to a server crash or what have you, then they will be capable of using the old calculator, and reffing will continue. Of course, if both are down, a Ref must be able to do the entire formula by hand, but chances are that if they can do the calculations required by the old calculator, they can do the whole formula.

Now, I haven't used either calculator myself, so this is all just based on the little I do know. But I have a feeling that this is at least part of the reason why the new calculator isn't allowed in the ref test.

 

This in a nutshell is correct. The basic mathematical formula isn't complicated at all if you know a bit of algebra, but the other stuff that the calc can do for you are trickier and, in a situation where you can't use the new calc, more handy to actually know how to do. Meanwhile, the difference between using the old calc and doing it by hand is much smaller.

 

People try to say that's a reason, but it's a stupid one.

Your mom must be pretty nifty, but nothing like that will ever happen in URPG if there are back-ups.

And like I said, if the new calc crashes the old one will too I think they are on the same site, so all these high and mighty refs won't even know how to do anything because they never learned to do the original damage formula or anything else. Pot calling the kettle black much?

And no, the old calc covers the damage formula and all that type of stuff. People who use the old calc wouldn't be able to use the damage formula very well or at least not right away, and by the time they could so could the people that use the new calc or the calcs would be back up again anyway.

 

This thread should be locked. I gave you my answer on this when I was still head ref. I don't see why it should still be discussed when it's a yes or no question.

Using your math idea sota, think of it this way. A test with the damage formula is just that, a test. Then you can use the old calculator to do your basic functions; add/subtract/divide/multiply. Think of the new calc as a formula sheet or a scientific calculator. You don't even have to know the material if you can just punch it into something that does it for you.

 

Held items are often used in ref test, as are different abilities and what not Soda. The new calc provides the luxury of having held items and everything done for you, where as the new calc does not. Using the Old Calc ensures you know how to ref essentially (items, abilities, etc) without having it all done for you. You could just know how to use the new calculator and not know anything about well...anything.

 

Like someone who is not in charge of the ref test saying it should be changed because they say so and that anyone that thinks otherwise is wrong? This debate is turning into people complaining to a deaf audience. If it keeps up people are going to get mad, there will be a split between who wants the calc available on the test and who doesn't. Then it will spread into other topics and everyone will hate each other. I've seen it happen before and I think this really needs to be ended before it gets more out of hand.

 

And?

Make the ref test/quiz harder, make sure people know everything? I don't think you even need to do that but whatever helps. Math is an unnecessary waste of time and that's the only the new calc covers, you still have to know plenty of the material. I don't know why you think the new calc is some walk in the park.

I guess this thread should be locked because Mr. former head ref here can't even understand a simple concept: use calculator, it do math for you. yay!

Oh and Somneki, us =/= anyone else you've ever met.

 

Critical hits are off on it by default, btw. Although, I remember it being quite different, though.

It's not a yes or no question, if you look at the thread title. Even if it was a yes or no question, it doesn't mean it should be locked. Threads should continue as long as people still have to things to post about the matter. If their opinions bother you, too bad, doesn't mean you can lock it.

Both of your arguments (as well as many others') are essentially based on the statement that the new calculator does 'everything' for you compared to the older one. This is a gross exaggeration. Neither calculator is capable of automating things other than damage directly from moves. Think about all the things not covered. That means things like passive damage, whether or not a move works, secondary effect activation, priority, recoil, and more still require knowledge to ref.

Also, more like...

old calc : new calc :: calculator w/o memory feature : calculator w/ memory feature

It's just adding a few more things. Some people are acting like this is like this is pen n' paper vs. calculator, when it's really calculator vs. slightly newer calculator.

The best ref is one who does everything correctly and with some brevity. Does it matter whether he/she knows exactly how Light Screen works? Not really. As long as the battle progresses in the manner it should. In fact, using the old calculator slows down the progress of the battle. A ref shouldn't answer anything for either battler if they are confused on why their Jolteon's second Thunderbolt did less damage after Light Screen. Doing so would be 'helping' a battler. A ref should just be like Shoddy Battle. The two battlers battle on it, while the program decides the outcome. Nothing less, nothing more.

Oh yeah, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned THE OLD CALCULATOR'S DAMAGE IS OFF. The fact that you're able to tell which calculator someone is using just by the damage dealt should make that obvious enough. Ideally, everything should be consistent.

Sota, you are awful, really. You're not going to get anywhere with your asshole rhetoric. There's a nice way to explain everything. I'm not defending you, I'm defending the idea, and you're just making it more difficult.

 

Sigma I'm sorry. :boom:

I don't know how else to explain it, I try to be calm but I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.

I know even if they did agree with me that it would be hard for them to admit because I was being such a dick so if they admit it it'll be like I'm defeating them but really that's not what I mean at all I truly think refs should be able to use the new calc on the test for reasons stated many, many times before.

Sorry everyone I will try to tone it down a little. :cheers:

 

Gahh.

I guessed I've phrased it wrongly. I meant that the newer calc does Critical Hits if checked automactically. Whereas, the older calc doesn't. Therefore, in a way, you have to do Critical Hits yourself on the old calc. That was the main reason why we banned the newer calc from ref tests.

 

No, it's the new calc where the damage is off. A move will have done 100 damage actually, but the new calc will show it as 101, unless it takes the other mon's HP to a multiple of 25% for some reason :3

So, apparantly, my opinion doesn't matter to Sota because he completely disregarded my post and asked a question that I answered.

 

Actually, I think he disregarded it (assuming that he didn't just not notice it) because it was a valid reason; someone else mentioned it has rounding errors. This is something that I assume could be adressed as a solid reason, and he seems mostly to be trying to defeat the unsolid, shaky, or unreliable ones before moving to valid ones. (And I'm afraid that came out a bit harsh; I'm not saying he's ignoring good reasons, I'm saying he's fighting bad reasons, assuming that he'll then move on to the good reasons, which if are myriad can be accepted, or if few can be individually addressed.)

 

If you look at the thread title, it's just a question, not a debate. Their opinions don't bother me, Sota's whiny responses do.

It gets to a point though where it's the Head Ref's decision, and so far that has been a no.

 

I'm not sure which one you're talking about, but I was talking about the 'Why don't we go to the old way of working it out with the formula then?'.

 

Ah, I thought you meant the new calculator was having rounding errors that could be shown in certain instances. My apologies, then.

 

Are you trying to make me mad? I've read every post in this thread I just didn't reply to Mk's for whatever reason. It wasn't that important.

Nobody has provided me with a valid reason to counter, you know why? Because there aren't any besides the unsolid ones.

Okay, there's a simple answer to your post. Jack uses the old formula and he doesn't complain or ever call it tedious. And there's no reason to do the math even if it's only a little tedious anyway, there's no point Mk. You can't deny that.

I may have been whining Crazy, but stating that isn't gonna make anything I say any less true. I'm sorry for being a little bitch I'M WORKING ON IT but you calling me out on it isn't gonna help your case at all. Oh wait you just get to say 'no' and its case closed anyway...how fair...love you. :crush:

 

I have a hunch that this is a thinly veiled way of making the ref test easier because you can't pass it. Why else would you care? Don't take time to answer that though, its just an opinion, and would detract from the thread.

First a question: If using the calc makes such a little difference, then why would it matter if you can use it on the test or not?

Now my opinion: I think that knowing exactly how the mechanics of the abilities and statues and whatnot work is something necessary for a ref. What the hell is this person who relies on the calc to ref going to do when Black and White come out? Wait for a new calc? The damage formula says the same. The only thing the person who uses the old calc will have to do is learn the few new mechanics and put in the new Pokemon's stats. The new calc ref won't be able to do that, because they don't know the original mechanics of the game. Essentially, all they are doing is pushing buttons, without really know the implications of each of those buttons. Its like a teacher that tries to teach a class by just reading directly from the test book. How is that going to end up?

Don't take this so literally though. My point isn't "the new calc should be banned because the refs who only use it wont be able to work when B/W come out." It applies to all tiny changes in mechanics or awkward situations set up in battles. Think of the new calc as luxury that the refs get BECAUSE they already know what the buttons do, not as a shortcut for people who don't.

 

You didn't actually countered my reason. I already said in my most recent post why the calc is banned. :| But since people like ignoring valid reasons so much, I'd repeat it again.

Imo main reason of banning new calc: New calc does Critical Hits for you, where old calc doesn't. This includes complicated stuff when you're combining abilities, helds, stat modifiers, Reflect/Light Screen, with Critical Hits. Now, a person that isn't doing so well might just get pass this scenario without any difficulty because it can just input these options in the new calc. However, a person that don't even know Critical Hits ignore what and takes into place what won't know how to work it out in the old calc.

Like what Leman/Pidge said, a referee that cannot answer why the damage isn't the same as what the battler is getting, is extremely disturbing. In a scenario of Burn and Critical Hit; for example, the referee simply inputs the Burn status and Critical Hit option in the new calc and does the damage. However, the battler gets a different result as he had ignored Burn actually. How is the referee going to explain the difference when he himself don't know much about Critical Hits.

Of course, Critical Hits isn't just "OH BECAUSE OF THIS SO WE BANNED". It includes the mostly the abilities. What we're asking of you, is to simply show us that you know how to use the old calc for once, and you can use whatever you want once you become a referee. That again, is my simple point made.

 

I guess the fundamental difference between the two sides is whether:

a. a ref should just be able to calculate the outcome of every turn
b. a ref should just be able to calculate the outcome of every turn and a know a little about why it exactly happened in regards to ability, status, and items

I really don't see why that last bit is necessary. Especially if both calculators already do so much for you already. A ref doesn't necessarily know why a special 95 attack does less than a physical 95 attack. A ref doesn't necessarily know why a flying attack with lower power does more than a fire attack with higher power. So why are certain things required to be known fully, but not others? The inconsistency is my main complaint.

If the new calculator is the one that is off, I apologize for my previous statement. Later today I'll compare the damages with other damage calculators to see for my self.

 

I had a post all ready for this this morning, but I got a 503 so I had to save it on the other comp :/

Even with reffing the formula, you don't have to know those things. You've never been required to know them; however, items, abilities, critical hits, etc... you've ALWAYS needed to know. You can ref with just copying the mons stats into the formula and not registering their ATK is higher than their Sp.ATK and the opponent's Sp.DEF is higher than their DEF. However, if you're reffing an items battle, you have to know that their Life Orb is going to increase the power by 30%, so you can edit the formula appropriately.

The only thing that a ref would really have to know about as general knowledge that the old calc covers is STAB and confusion, imo.