Administration problems in the URPG

brb closing thread

I still fail to see how we fear limiting our power. Could you provide more examples of this? :kiss:

 

See I go to a school with an honor code and the rules are very clearly laid out, and when you are caught breaking one of these rules their is a punishment directly corresponding with that act, regardless of the situation. There actually isn't this area of "oh well you should know better," mostly because that is very weak logic. Part of joining the URPG is that you're read through the rules, but breaking the rules doesn't seem to have a large consequence, you just walk away from it, occasionally needing to revert what you did, but you don't lose anything, other than maybe your time. Although honestly, anyone willing to spend their time being a part of this system, let alone abusing it is well, wasting their time to begin with.

Can you give another reason why the mods/officials don't want to put specific punishments with crimes? And, it's a waste of time/unnecessary is a bullshit answer.

 

It's hard to outline everything that is considered abuse, because most of them are loopholes that we have never considered. I do think if you find a way to abuse something, within the rules, you shouldn't be punished too severely, but whatever you gained from the abuse should just be reversed, and maybe a little penalty. Anyway, I can try to define 'abuse':

any action or set of actions that is repeatedly done in a span of time that allows a player to acquire a profit or equivalent materials (including, but not limited to: Pokemon, TMs, items) in a manner in which the effort involved is substantially unproportional to that profit or equivalent materials

Yeah, it's pretty long-winded. I think the key points are 'repeatedly', 'profit', and 'effort'. Basically, if you do something over and over and get something out of it with ease, it is abuse. And yes, even terms like 'repeatedly' can be discretionary (how many times does it have to be done before it is abuse and in what span of time?), so can 'effort' and its relation to 'profit' (how can you quantify effort and check if it is proportional to the profit?). However, it should seem clear by that definition that buying 10 Geodude and getting a 25k profit from the basic battles involved seems kind of undeserved, and odd (why would you have 10 Geodude?). If I had it my way, every Pokemart Pokemon would cost 10k, and FFAs would pay less (and be once a week). But that's kind of off topic.

In most rule systems, the higher ups have some kind of power in doing what is deemed necessary and proper, like the 'Elastic Clause' in the U.S. Constitution. I guess taking back the easy Park Pokemon was deemed necessary and proper because people were getting Pokemon way too easily. However, I don't think anyone was really punished (except Marth I think), they just had to return those Pokemon, and they got back whatever they spent on it. If it was punishment, they would have to give back the Pokemon and then pay a fine or something. It was more of a 'oh we made a shitty system, and now everyone has these cool Pokes without trying, we gotta fix this', rather than 'you guys messed everything up by getting these Pokemon easily, we're taking them back'.

Also, ignore this paragraph if what I'm saying you're saying is wrong (strawman). If you're suggesting mods and officials are immune from rules, look at Marth. If you're suggesting ST is immune, a lot of us are saying he can't obtain a BW man as a prize (and we're still saying he can't). And you may have a point in him making too much money before the 2 FFAs a week rule was established, but nobody seemed to bring up the idea that those earnings should be reversed, as it could very well fit into the definition I created above.

Also, isn't Pickup limited to 1 item per week?

Also, specific punishments with crimes is fine.

 

Good job avoiding my question :3

PS. Because we deal with these things on a case-by-base basis, making a broad rule would be pointless since the punishment is based on several factors (like what the abuse was, whether they knew it was abuse or not, how long they've been in URPG (aka should they have known better or not?), the degree of abuse, and some other stuff that I can't think of at the moment).

PPS. Now that I've answered your question, I'd appreciate it if you'd answer my question. Because really, your statement isn't very strong if you only have one example of it.

 

Alright well i'm saying your answer is bullshit because if someone read the rules and knew they weren't supposed to do something, then it wouldn't matter how long they'd been in the URPG.

Also I'll address your question when you address the example I gave, rather than just asking for another.

EDIT: I double posted, sue me

 

Does that not answer your question?

That just proves my point; it's impossible to put specific punishments on a crime because of the number of variables, since the punishment for something like you said would be harsher than for someone who hadn't read the rules thoroughly. -_-

EDIT: I mean I have no problem if you want to say that a person that abuses the battling system to make a profit should have to pay back the money they immorally gained and be handed a ban of some sort, but it's the ban that is impossible to make specific for all cases. Just look at what happened with king forever ago- he was an experienced ref who cheated, and he got harshly punished for it (banned for a length of time, then had to repay his massive debt). If it had been a newer, not very experienced ref (like Cress Albane was in this case), the punishment would differ greatly.

 

Well then it is their own fault for not reading the rules thoroughly, also since you were calling my reason bullshit, I was calling your answer, in case you didn't notice.

Honestly, the whole mods are to blame was really just a way for me to close my post since it felt empty without a finisher, and I'd like to make that clear since I really just want the other argument to get the spotlight.

 

i still hate administration anyway js

 

Marshy, a lot of people pretty much skim the rules, if they bother to read them at all. There are so many ways that things can be abused and loopholes we haven't thought of that, as others have said, it would be impractical trying to make up rules to cover EVERY SINGLE THING people might do wrong. You say make amendments instead of adding new rules, but if we add amendments it will just make the rules longer, and then even fewer people will read them thoroughly, which just leaves us back where we started; with people doing something because they "didn't know better" thanks to not reading the rules.

Even if we did do this, we still couldn't have set penalties because there are too many things to consider when dealing out punishment for broken rules. If we have set penalties for everything, then any time a rule is broken by anyone they'd end up getting the same treatment, whether the punishment is severe enough or too severe. If we tried to make levels of punishment, we'd have to break that into so many categories it'd be ridiculous and harder to deal with than our current system. We'd have to break the levels into things like what the punishment is, what warrants it, how long the action has been going on, how long the member has been a part of the URPG...which is basically what we already do, without having to constantly refer to some chart or graph that might actually impede our decisions instead of making them easier and faster.

I also find it funny that people are still bitching about the Park incident. How many times do I have to spell this out? The EFFORT put into getting the Pokemon was hideously below the effort that SHOULD have been put into getting them. People saw they could get Mon without really trying and threw out shitty posts because they got away with it. People were getting good, rare Mon with very little in the way of actually TRYING. This was one reason the Mon were taken. Another reason, maybe a more important one, was that it wasn't fair to people who HAD put an effort into getting those Mon, that someone else should put in the fraction of the time and effort and gotten the same thing. If a person got an Aero for 20k in a week without any real effort, and you'd spent two months working on an 80k story for an Aero, wouldn't you feel kinda pissed that you, too, could have gotten one for less time and effort? It was damage control. At any rate, people weren't punished for the abuse of the system; like was said, if they'd been punished they would have not only had to give the Mon back, they would have been fined or something as well. As it was, people were refunded what they spent on that Mon, both in getting it from the Park AND any money they'd spent to evolve it or put EMs on it.

So please, stop bringing up the Park. It doesn't work as an example of unfair treatment. People weren't mad that they had to give back Mon that they'd WASTED SO MUCH TIME in getting. They were pissed because we were taking good Mon from them that they'd have to actually end up earning. And keep in mind, please, that I was one of the people who had a Mon revoked. So don't try to tell me anything about "You're being high and mighty" or whatever.

TED, grow up, okay? You yourself even said that both options available in that situation were probably unfair, so what, exactly, did you want to happen? For the whole battle to start over again? I personally think the turn should have been redone, if it was an honest mistake on your part. I sometimes call moves for my Mon I don't have on them. It happens sometimes. Sometimes the turn gets redone and sometimes I have to skip my turn and the opponent gets a free move. I don't like when the latter happens but it's the ref's call, though usually the refs ask the battlers what they want to do. You're not the only person this has happened to, so stop acting like you've been horribly wronged.

EDIT: Sorry if I sound bitchy in this, it's just, for crying out loud, it's a game on the internet.

 

thanks for the paragraph tt but that still wont change my mind about anything. i could rant on you for a while but you dont see me doing that. just face it: a lot of people are fed up.

 

I know people are fed up and I can understand why in many cases. For one, there's still a bit of animosity between PE2K and BMG, which I wish wasn't the case. We're all trying to enjoy the same things, right? Is it really so hard to forget some of us are from a different forum and just enjoy the game?

For the topic at hand, several people have explained why we cannot enforce specific punishments for whenever a certain rule is broken and why we cannot begin to list rules for everything a person can do wrong. Many of us have offered to share what goes on in the Mod boards so long as it's not of a sensitive nature, like promotion/ban discussions. Several of us have agreed there's no need for the majority of the Mod boards to be hidden, only to where only Mods and Officials can post and not everyone.

I know people feel a divide between staff and ordinary member, and there is one. We can't do anything to close it completely, but many of us agree we should try to close it as much as possible. Inviting everyday members to view the majority of what we discuss would probably help, as that way, members would know what's being addressed, how it's being addressed, and that sort of thing.

But you have to remember that even though we're staff, we're only human, same as the rest of you. We're as prone to the same mistakes, the same disagreements, the same arguments, and so on. So we can't fix every single problem that comes up, and the ones we do will always leave at least one person feeling unhappy with the results. You can't please all the people all of the time.

My point to this is we do what we can, but you can't expect us to address every single possible little flaw of the URPG, list it down, and come up with suitable levels of punishment. There are things we can't foresee, and when problems arise we DO do our best to sort them out in the best manner possible. I know it might not seem like it, but we do.

Also TED, I'm sorry if I seemed like I was trying to bitch at you, but you have to realize you're not the only one who's been screwed in that manner. You've been acting like some major sin has been committed against you but a lot of other people have suffered the same outcome. It's just how it is. Also, it's pretty immature to say you hate the entire administration when we didn't all immediately rush to your side of the matter. Like I said, I'm not saying it's your fault or that you deserved the outcome. The turn should have been redone, and a lot of people have made the mistake of thinking their Mon has a move when it doesn't. But just like in real life, shit happens in the URPG. Then we get over it and move on, or if you're vengeful, you get a flamethrower and some toilet paper, then TP the offender's house and set the TP on fire. I don't actually condone that or anything, mind you.

At any rate, this ties in a bit with what I said earlier. You can't please all the people all of the time, because in the end, final decisions will always leave someone unhappy with the results. The best we can do is try to please as many people as we can.

 

I'm sure what happened in my case happens a lot like you said, but not at the same level with the same results. If it were normal battle, I would've moved on, but it wasn't and there were actually more than just money on the line. Also, when it happens to others, they probably don't bother to bring it up. I did because I deserve to have my voice heard as do others. They just don't take the opportunity. But all that isn't even why I initially posted anyway; it was just your assumption.

I've been fed up with the administration for a while now; what happened to me just made me hate more of them. If you really want me to go off topic and list every person and something I hate about them, then feel free to ask.

 

Alright then, post. I'm interested to see this list.

 

Inb4 list including 25+ People with the reason, "killed me in a FFA"

 

Give me assurance I won't be banned from a few of you possibly being butthurt.

 

I won't ban you (not that we can directly ban you here on BMG), but I can't guarantee that my colleagues wouldn't do it. I'd hope that they'd be mature enough to take some criticism, but again I can't say that for sure.

 

As taken from the list of mods and officials in the rules:

 

I don't generally care enough about all these so-called "administrative problems" to post in these threads, but this inspired me to do so.

TED, that was obnoxious.

Of the 21 people on that list, you wrote down five legitimate reasons why you don't like them. For 12 of them, your only reason was that they're never on. Another three, you just said you don't like, with no reason. And the last three, there was no reason for. When you said you were going to list everyone and a reason why you hate them, I actually expected something legitimate for most of them. Every one of those people earned their position, at least in the discretion of the people who chose them, and the fact that they're never on is hardly a reason to hate someone. I'd agree that our officials should be fairly active, but that's up to the higher leaders (most of whom are active). Claiming that you hate all of the officials and backing it up with immature reasons like "they're never on" or "I just don't like you" really doesn't endear anyone to your cause.

I've been around a few years, and even though I go fairly inactive during the school year, I check what's going on constantly. I've never had a problem with the way the URPG is run, even back when Jack was the leader. Numerous officials have already agreed that it would be okay to open up the mod boards, thereby addressing the first problem this thread was made to discuss. The second problem shouldn't even be an issue. The older members should know how things work around here enough to know when they're being abusive, so they deserve to be punished at the discretion of the leaders when that happens. The younger members don't generally get hit all that hard if they break the rules.

TED, it seems like you're the one butthurt by the way one battle turned out. Guess what? There'll be other tournaments. If you can't move on from one stupid battle, then leave. Please, save us the whining.