Mega Clause

I dont think it could hurt to start compiling a list. So here are some things that bug people sometimes.

Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Gengar
Speed Boost Blaziken
Mega Blaziken
Mega Lucario
Protean Greninja
Ditto
Multiscale(?) Dragonite
Togekiss
Prankster Whimsicott
Shadow Tag Chandelure
Mega Mawile

 

@swiftgallade46; If we do want to go ahead with this method that does look like a good place to start (not saying they all should be banned, just discussed), but I think turning this into a suspect discussion thread would be a little off track from it's original point.

Feel free to start another thread if you/anybody else wants to.

 

The only thing I'm not understanding, is why the three top Megas are being singled out when we have had Greninja, Blaziken, and Dragonite for a long while. There have always been overpowered Pokemon that get used against gyms just like these megas are. It's not like I suddenly don't have to deal with a Shadow Tag Chandy being able to OHKO 3/4 of my team and do over half to the remaining 1/4. It's not like Dragon gyms aren't still ridiculously weak to things like Weavile and now Togekiss. Fire gyms are still pretty slow besides Blaziken. Bugs have no real way to deal with Multiscale Dragonite. Ghost used to be easy to sweep if you just had a Tyranitar. Etc.

Gym leaders have and always will be at a disadvantage against a trainer who actually has put in the time to get good Pokemon and EM them well. That's what comes with the territory. This has been something most gyms have had to deal with for a long period of time now. Sure, Megas are now a real threat for the Flying and Normal type gyms of the world, but it's just something they have to adjust to just like every other type before them.

I don't know what game you guys have been playing, but there is no such thing as an automatic win because of one side having a particular Pokemon. Sure, there team can have an advantage over you in typings and coverage, but this isn't a game where all you can do is attack and whoever has the most health at the end wins. There are different options available to you, and if you don't want to look for them then you are going to lose.

Now, I think enough privilege is already given to the gym leader in creating the rules. If they truly want to counter a particular Pokemon, they can simply change the rules to get it into their favor. Whether it be through weather, removing abilities in GSC, turning items off, limiting sweepers in Gameboy Clause, or through some other silly clause we decide to implement, Gym leaders are given every opportunity to figure out a way to combat this new Mega threat.

That being said, if we aren't talking about gyms and we are talking about high level battling such as E4 or Champion, whoever gets the strongest Pokemon with the best moves and the best items gets the advantage. The person who put in the work deserves the advantage they earned. They don't automatically win. They just don't have to worry about all the same things their opponent does.

P.S. I'm against the idea of a Mega clause.

 

Currently mobile. I'll type up big responses in a sec, but.

@Felly; Ash K. has a Mega-Luc, which was a defining factor in his E4 victory. I'd use Mega-Kanga more often if I didn't feel like an enormous prick using it. Can't link, but last time I used her she took down Greninja, (something I forgot), and a Blaziken by herself. Not centralizing at all. Sorry for derailing okay done there.

Also seriously sorry for just replying to Felly lol

You literally just listed four other clauses that Gym leaders are allowed to use to counter threats. I fail to see why those are okay and Megas aren't.

Also, I seriously didn't mean to turn this only to gym battles. I wanted to show that certain Megas are stupidly overpowered, either with no set-up or minimal set-up, and that this OP-ness could be limited in conventional battling.

 

Thank you Neon, for so well summing up what I've been wanting to say and not sure how to.

The problem outlined about M-Luke in Dark was basically identical to Weavile in generation 5 Dragon. One Swords Dance, all non-Kingdra fall over (and Kingdra can't hit back hard enough). I imagine loss of Wildcards (which if not Charizard didn't really solve the Weavile problem anyways) and availability of BM Icicle Crash can't have helped with that problem. Scizor I hear is a nightmare in Ice due to complete lack of Fire on ANY Ice type (except Kyurem-White) and STAB Steel weakness. The fact that the problem Pokémon for certain gyms is now Megas is no reason to ban them. Weavile and Scizor would probably never get banned in general battling, so Mega Lucario being able to murder a Dark gym or Mega Absol being able to murder a Ghost gym is no reason to instantly ban them from everything. Nothing is uncounterable if you play it right, and you can always tailor your rules to dealing with it.

@Swift's list: I think only Impostor Ditto is a problem, if you want to send Limber Ditto and have to use Transform I don't think that's bad since the opponent gets a turn to either stop it, injure it a lot, prepare for it, or switch to something they don't mind being copied.

Maybe more on this to come.

For the record, my stance is that I am completely against a mega clause, even more against an XY battle style that is about it, but currently undecided/indifferent on "uber" clause.

 

Assuming we're replacing the legend clause under the uber clause

This is just a ROUGH(since some people on aim don't get that) 600+ BST list since that seems to be the best rough indicator of potential power that we have in such unknown territory, I'm not saying they should all be banned under uber clause, some do, some don't but just like swifts proposal its something to work off, admittedly it will be harder since legends are new territory.

 

After some AIM discussions, I feel opposed to the "uber" clause as well.

 

use your words to explain

 

I was going to post something like this but you already did lol. So Neon is right I use the gameboy clause and Stadium rules in my gym to help me counter Pokemon like Greninja, there are so many things a gym leader can do to even the playing field they just have to look. Outside of gym just take items off Or agree not to use mega Pokemon it's as easy as that.

With that said I'm against the idea of a Mega clause.

 

This genuinely sounds like you guys just don't want to battle anything you guys don't like. Speed Boost Blaziken and Multiscale Dragonite have been problems long before Megas were even announced in the games and in URPG. Why didn't you all petition to ban those when they became genuine problems? Why suggest to ban them now?

To further go into detail, I'm going to use the list compiled by Swifty and Fawkes. I'm not trying to "grill" any of you, as Fawkes put it this morning on AIM, but I'm just trying to get my opinion out there and show that these Pokemon aren't really a genuine problem in the URPG for a variety of reasons.

Mega Kangaskhan - 2x Fighting type weakness. Can't raise Defense or Special Defense. Mega Blaziken 2HKOs with Brick Break, regular Blaziken 3HKOs with Brick Break & if I remember correctly, it gets Quick Attack level up. If you don't have those, there's always hax, and you can whittle its HP down with a variety of Pokemon.

Mega Gengar - Ghosts aren't affected by Shadow Tag, and you can use Roar/similar moves and/or Baton Pass/similar moves to get out of it too. Also, once it's Mega, it gains a Ground weakness, and its Defense isn't that great, and I could probably bet URPG money that it gets 2HKO'd by Bulldoze & Earthquake from Pokemon that get it as STAB, and probably even Pokemon that don't get it as STAB. Plus, if you Roar/similar moves it out, you're forcing a possibly unwanted send or something you're more easily able to defeat.

Speed Boost/Mega Blaziken - Because they're literally the same thing, but one's not Mega & one is Mega, and the Mega just has better stats in Attack and Speed. And odds are, if it's Mega, you can just throw a Thunder Wave at it and take advantage of your higher Speed. :/ Also, Nubchicken has sounded like it's been a problem in URPG long before it became a Mega, so I dunno why you all are trying to ban it now rather than sooner.

Mega Lucario - Gains Adaptability. Okay. Still maintains its weaknesses. You could probably use your same strategy for a regular Lucario with the Mega too.

Protean Greninja - Nubfrog can only raise its Attack, and by the time it even gets to the point of being threatening, it's probably going to be KO'd anyways. Also, you can probably work your way around Protean if you can play the guessing game right, which a lot of you seem to be good at doing to begin with.

Imposter Ditto - Imposter Ditto has probably been a problem for a while now, but it's literally your own Pokemon that you're fighting. And if you feel like an Imposter Ditto's gonna come out, or you know one is going to come out, you can always switch, and if you don't want to do that, you can cripple it and go from there.

Multiscale Dragonite - Something that's probably been a problem for a while too. If it has Lefties, knock 'em off, or you can go for a Burn or Toxic. If your opponent has Heal Bell, they're forced to waste a turn to get rid of it anyways, and you can either use that turn to set up or knock their lefties off if they have 'em (or whatever other item they may have if it's not Lefties). Once it loses Multiscale, it's really not that threatening.

Togekiss - Tanky, but still defeatable. Also, thanks to gen 6 making it a Fairy/Flying type instead of a Normal/Flying type, it gained two weaknesses in Poison and Steel anyways.

Prankster Whimsicott - 4x to Poison now. It may have Prankster, but it's 4x weak to Poison, and you can probably mess it up before it does any real damage. Also if it Encores you into a Poison type move, lol.

Shadow Tag Chandelure - See Mega Gengar.

Mega Mawile - Burn, Specially based Fire type moves, done.

Mega Tyranitar - 4x to Fighting. Probably goes down with a Focus Blast or two, or some other Fighting type moves. Also, it's slower than most Pokemon at 241 Speed, and a lot of things typically have 259 in Speed. Not even that threatening, imo.

All the Legends - Legend Clause already exists. Not to mention literally legendaries are really rare in URPG to begin with. As of right now, only four people have them: Chainy, Smiles, Syn, and Pidge. Chainy and Pidge aren't super active in battles, and in Pidge's case, he barely even goes here. Smiles doesn't battle much either. Syn's literally the only active battler with a legendary. The only things in URPG that regularly give legendaries are SWC, WWC, and LD. The first two have been temporary legends as of late, though they do base that on how many stories are submitted for the competition. LD is done through battles, and based on the thread (which has some really confusing rules in regards to LD Champion & all that, but I digress), even if you get 10 wins, you only get to keep it for 6 months anyways. Legends literally aren't in circulation long enough to be a genuine problem, unless they're permanent, and even then, there is a Legend Clause to prevent these from really being a genuine problem, except maybe in an FFA, and there, you all get into teams anyways, so again, not a huge deal. I'm not saying you can't use your legendary Pokemon, I'm just saying it's not a big enough of a problem to be a threat. And even if someone did bring out a legendary, use it as a learning experience.

I was unaware the URPG suddenly became all about being the best there ever was or winning every battle you're ever in. I was unaware every single battle in URPG had to be a serious one now. Literally, URPG battling has become the least fun thing in the world because it literally feels like everyone's taking it too seriously. If you lose a battle in URPG, it's not going to be the end of the world. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

All of the Pokemon genuinely sound to me like a bunch of Pokemon you all do not want to battle at all. If we're going to make a list of Pokemon we don't want to battle or don't want to see challengers using in our gym/E4/LD battles, let me look at the 18 losses I've attained in Geosenge since I've had it and add to that list myself, and then while I'm at it, I'll go through Ash's Pokemon and add even more Pokemon to that list just based solely on the fact that I just cannot beat Ash in a battle, FFAs excluded. And if I want to make the list even bigger, I'll go as far back as my Saffron record, where I attained 13 losses before I switched to Geosenge. And lemme tell ya, if I do that, there's gonna be some pretty ridiculous stuff on there that I'm going to suggest be "banned" because I don't want to see them in Geosenge.

If you lose, look back and see what you did wrong and learn from it. Try again another day, or even in a few hours if you'd prefer, or a week if you're trying for LD. It's not about winning. It's about learning. If all you care about is winning every URPG battle you're ever in, you need to rethink your priorities in URPG big time.

EDIT: Also, yes, I keep throwing out the whole "there's not a lot of them that belong to active battlers in URPG, so it's not a problem," and I do it for a reason. Why in the hell do I need to be worried about a Mega Lucario coming into Geosenge and fucking me up when it's so rare in URPG and everyone who has attained one from mart, with a handful of exceptions, has already beaten my gym and gotten the badge and didn't even use Lucario? If I had to pick between being more worried about Mega Lucario or being more worried about Mega Blaziken coming into my gym and fucking me up, I'd be more worried about Mega Blaziken because it's a mart Pokemon, so it's more easily obtainable by the URPG members. Why do I need to be worried about something that isn't a threat? If it comes into my gym and it fucks me up, then so be it. I'll take the loss, see what I did wrong, and I'll do my best to not let it happen again.

 

This is an irritating argument and I wish it would stop, because that's not what anyone here is saying. For the record, I don't think that half of the Pokemon you've listed are uncompetitive, and I don't think they should be banned (Ditto, Blaziken, Greninja, Ditto, Dragonite, Togekiss, Whimsicott, and Chandelure all come to mind seriously Chandelure what).

We're trying to differentiate between "problem/irritating" and "broken."

Actually, I think I understand why this is so confusing. Regarding the list, though, I think there's an issue where about fifty different people here all have different opinions and no one is listening to anyone else. As far as I can tell, there are three major things being discussed:
=Mega-Clause
=Ubers Clause (Smogon's Ubers)
=Ubers Clause (URPG's Ubers, which apparently included Chandelure seriously Chandelure what

and I think your response is to bullet three? Correct me if I'm wrong. (It incorporates elements of all three, so idk)

As such, unless you really want me to, I'm not going to debunk the whole "threat list" thing that you made because most of those are valid--I'm not in favor of banning 70% of the Pokemon you discussed CHANDELURE SERIOUSLY WAT. I do, however, think that Megas, especially those named Kangaskhan, Gengar, and Lucario are game-breaking, and if the simplest way to even out the playing field is to have an optional clause that allows their inclusion or not, I see nothing wrong with it.

tbh, pretty sure we started adding Legendary Clause to things because Ash K./others started trying to use them in casual battles. Flashbacks to times when Ash would challenge nublets with Lugia, anyone?

Also, that's kind of the point. People thought that it wasn't fair that Legendary Pokemon were being used to crush other players who didn't have the option of using the same Legends in return. People thought that Legends were uncompetitive. People then made a clause that optionally limited the use of Legendary Pokemon. How is this any different from a Mega-Clause?

I fail to see how getting swept by an uncompetitive threat is entertaining.

This argument is still strawmanning and lame. D:

Also, I apologize if I didn't make it clear earlier, but the aforementioned calcs with Mega-Luc versus Geosenge were meant to showcase how damning a single Pokemon can be. However, Mega-Lucario isn't bad in just Geosenge; it has extreme utility in every other battle, and that's why I think it's worth discussing banning it.

Also, fun fact, the pre-teaming commentary for Ash vs Hannah E4 focused only on "should I send Mega-Gengar predicting his Mega-Lucario or just send Mega-Kangaskhan because it can deal more raw damage to most teams." The battle for Ash vs Syn E4 centered on "wow okay my team can now be picked apart by Mega-Luc because I sent Mega-Kangaskhan instead of Mega-Gengar." The battle of Syn vs Ataro E4 centered on "Mega-Gengar wrecks your team and you sent no Mega."

I don't think it matters at lower battles, because those can be fun and, sure, you can just shake off a loss because all that really happens is your record goes down a little. But at the highest level of URPG battling, it becomes really un-fun, overcentralizing, and generally just kind of lame. :>

There are fewer Legends than Megas. You have proven that many times. Why, then, is there a Legend Clause and no Mega Clause? I, uh, have issues following this argument very well and have failed to see someone cleanly debunk it. Also, both Mega-Luc and Mega-Blaziken are covered in the Mega Clause anyway, so I'm really, really not seeing the point here.

Also, it's an optional clause. I think people are still forgetting that. ._.

 

It does stink a little bit of "I don't like battling these Pokemon", but I can also appreciate the logic behind WHY people don't like battling these Pokemon.

My issue with this suggestion (and the Legend Clause too) is that Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario like Elysia mentioned keep popping up as broken, uncompetitive etc. That's fine, and I can see the evidence for that. So why should a rule intended to remove these Pokemon also prevent Pokemon which have not once been mentioned in this discussion from being used, like Mega Manectric for example? On top of that, we know there are plenty more Megas on the way. Mega Sceptile, Swampert, Metagross, Sableye, probably more. These might be rubbish, or they might be viable counters to the broken Megas that currently exist.

This next point applies to both the for and against arguments:
In my opinion there are also some issues with applying Smogon/Showdown/Wi-Fi logic to URPG. I'm not suggesting it doesn't apply and there are obviously a lot of parallels to be drawn, but URPG has such a wider, more varied metagame.
Mega Lucario in a Dark Gym has been fairly strongly enforced in this thread as a problem, but I couldn't care less if one showed up in Cinnabar. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a Mega Pokemon which would be more dangerous to me than a Protean Greninja, or Swift Swim Kingdra used to be in previous generations. Talonflame and Crobat in a Fighting gym are HUGELY uncompetitive options. These "perfect counters" to a type have always existed and always will.

This is why I suggest a URPG Ubers Clause instead. There will ALWAYS be Pokemon which are completely uncompetitive in SPECIFIC situations, but if we ban them all for this reason, not many will remain. I'm also not in favour of banning Pokemon that have a specific title, "Mega" or "Legendary" without looking into their actual competitive nature.

Based on this, I can fully support a ban for Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan and other Pokemon which can be shown to be broken in URPG as a whole, and not specific situations. The monotype nature of URPG gyms and variety of battling styles means the situational Pokemon will always exist, and they always have. I find a rule to ban all of those uncompetitive in itself.

Having said all this, the Mega Clause is definitely the simplest option and I guess it would resolve the issue at hand. In the event an uncompetitive Gengar/Kangaskhan does wreck your shit, you can't complain because it's your own fault for not putting the clause on.

 

Honestly, at this stage, I would be content with an optional URPG Ubers clause. But, there would have to be enough damning evidence to essentially remove a Pokemon from URPG existence. There'd have to be definite lines drawn as to what constituents banning, uncompetitiveness and centralization. The difference between necessary and auto-win is a pretty important distinction that has to be made, seperating possibly Blaziken from almost certainly not Togekiss.

Progress!

 

I totally agree, and this is the same reason I'm in theory against the Mega Clause - it seems a blanket solution on a lot of good, competitive Pokemon to rule out a couple of uncompetitive ones. However with it being optional, I don't see this is a big issue.

I can see three real options here
- Mega Clause, optional, default off, essentially prevents the use of Mega Stones
- Ubers Clause, optional, default off, prevents the use of a specific set of overpowered Pokemon
- "Suspect/Broken" Clause, optional, default ON, prevents the use of a VERY specific set of completely uncompetitive Pokemon

If you choose to turn the third one off, then you clearly plan on using a uncompetitive Pokemon, which is going to be looked poorly upon.

 

I personally just advocate Mega Clause because determining which Pokemon are OP/not OP is difficult--we all seem to agree on Mega-Gengar and Mega-Kanga, for example, but Mega-Luc is up in the air and I'm sure that if I suggested banning Mega-Charizard X Monbrey would shut everything down okay haha jokes over. Seriously, though, I compare it to gyms using, like, G/S/C rules to limit abilities: not all Pokemon have awesome abilities that would wreck a game, but it's an all or nothing, and in order to remove those abilities, the clause covers all of them. It sucks to be the Mega-Blastoise or whatever, but it'd still be an optional clause, and if you want to use Mega-[Pokmeon], you don't have to use the clause. ._.

Glad that we're approaching the same page, though. ^^

OH LATE TO THE PARTY JUST SAW NEW POST GONNA EDIT.

I favor option one, then two/three kind of overlap for me, depending on how we classify Ubers. Probably just three, though.

 

I personally prefer the third option out of all them. Mega Clause is simplest, yes, but simple is not always the best route. I honestly don't think it would be too hard to compile a very specific list of completely overpowered Pokemon. It's not hard to tell if something is that obviously OP. And if worse comes to worse, you could always add more or even un-ban things as more mechanics are introduced to counter them. The only slight complication is having people who may disagree with a Pokemon who is banned/left un-banned. In cases of dispute, a hierarchy of voting (starting with everyone, then moving to current, refs then to senior refs) could be used to determine what should be in the clause and what shouldn't. I am still very against mega clause for the same reasons I stated before.

 

I agree, but I don't think it would be possible to tier some Pokemon. Charizard-X and Lucario come to mind.

And by the same logic, Pokemon such as Entei and Articuno are banned under the same clause that bans Arceus or Mewtwo. The former two aren't nearly as awful as the latter two, but we blanket-claused those as well.

Also, ban =/= clause ban. You can still use Megas if we implemented a Mega clause, but only if you're prepared to face OP mega threats.

 

For the record, I am against Legend Clause as well but have not commented on it until now because I thought it was irrelevant. Also, I dont really want tiers. The word "Uber" is kind of misleading since it's used as the name of a tier by Smogon, but honestly I just think that the really obviously overpowered Pokemon should me limited and that's it. If Charizard X and Mega Lucario aren't obviously OP, then don't limit them. Simple as that.

 

Eh, I personally like removing specific uncompetitive Pokemon from the metagame, but I don't think it's the best solution for URPG.

I also don't think a Mega Clause addresses the issue of those specific uncompetitive Mega Pokemon, because people who want to use their cool quirky Megas may then have to face up against Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan. However I can't see a Mega Clause hurting battling, where as enforcing the removal of specific Pokemon could.

 

Yo, man. Try using freaking steel types against it. It's not fun at all.

It's like bringing Choice Scarf Excadrill to an electric gym.