URPG Issues

The way I see it, if you're not gaining any kind of advantage (or putting someone else at a disadvantage) from an action, you're not being dishonourable in doing it. I also seem to recall you telling people that they could OHKO if they wanted to. How is that different from me telling people they can 2HKO? Don't get me wrong, best case scenario for me would be people actually trying to win in basics battles, but for that to happen, everyone would need to be trusted to stick to this unwritten "Don't throw basics" rule. Obviously, that's not going to happen.

Elamite, I'm not a mod or a head of section. I'd prefer if I actually counted towards "positive reaction". And in all honestly, ATF is not an accurate representation of the mods. To use one sentence he made to try and undermine the mods is, to put in bluntly, ridiculous.

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This seems to be a recurring point people are making (if you'll excuse the paraphrasing), so I thought I'd just make my stance on it clear:

"If I donate my time and effort into helping someone evolve their basics, then I should be rewarded for that."

As I said before, that's quite a selfish viewpoint to have. What happened to just helping someone because they needed help, not because you knew you'd make a quick 5k from it? People are blowing basics out of proportion - basics battles really shouldn't take longer than 5 minutes, so worst case scenario is you take about 50 minutes to do 10 basics. They're also not so complex that they need your full attention and it's entirely plausible for you to do something "worthwhile" at the same time, so I don't see how anyone can blame the mods for their own poor time management.

Finally:

:-|

 

@KidBeano;

The reason I suggested OHKO's is that they don't pay anyone involved - as such they can completely legally be used for the purposes of evolving a Pokemon without making any profit through the abuse of the system. If I wanted a Pokemon evolved straight away, this is what I'd do as long as a ref was willing. "Charizard uses Flamethrower, Bulbasaur KO'd gg" can be copy-pasted 10 times without pay. Without abuse.

Contrary to that, the purpose of a 2HKO would be to continue to profit by abusing the system in the way that we are trying to stop. Although this can't be done with permabasics anymore, I'm fully aware that it can be done through evolving basics. I admit that in a lot of cases, one of the basics has slim to no chance of winning. I reffed Gligar vs Surskit earlier - the whole battle pretty much hinged on Surskit's Bubblebeam's 10% chance to lower Speed. It didn't happen, and Gligar won. I'd be happy to ref Swagger, or whatever else they attempted to do to win.

Other than that point, I totally agree with what you've posted. It's really difficult to take someone's complaints about not being able to help people seriously - there's absolutely nothing stopping you. You just don't get paid, and if that DOES stop you then you were never looking to help anyone but yourself.



A lot of people probably aren't familiar with how many times the issues around permabasics has been brought up in the past. Before the current trend, permabasics tended to be Pokemon such as Adaptability Eevee and Technician Scyther, which people abused to WIN basics in two turns and net double the profit that they were doing recently. Nearly everyone agreed that this was abuse, and so the trend of throwing the battles for half the profit started becoming more popular. However without realizing it, this was still abuse. By providing the person who is trying to evolve their Pokemon with a guaranteed $10,000 profit, your permabasic is then helping someone else abuse the system. The quick nature that these 2HKO's were reffed in both situation was abuse of the system by the ref also.

Honestly, everyone should be thankful that we didn't issue any direct punishments or fines for this conduct. We're simply stopping it so that HOPEFULLY punishments wont be required.

 

Completely agree with the first paragraph, but differ a bit on the second. I don't know if it's just my way of thinking, but if you have a basic which needs to be evolved, you're going to get somewhere between 5k-10k or 3.5k-7k for the battles needed to evolve it. There's no two-ways about that. To me, if two people have basics which need to be evolved, it does seem pointless to call speeding up the process of evolving them "abuse" at that point. Sure, having a fixed outcome isn't exactly what we want to promote, but "abuse" is too harsh a word to use at that point, since they are, in effect, "entitled" to that money (I know no-one's entitled to anything, but just using that word to get my point across). After the 7/10 battles have passed, THAT'S when the money starts becoming extra, and abuse starts to kick in.

In competitive battles, if it comes down to a standoff where either you can 2HKO your opponent, or they'll 2HKO you if you don't, you 2HKO them. It's basic strategy, you'd be a fool not to do it. I don't see why 1v1s should be null from using this strategy just because the battle becomes short. I hope I'm explaining myself well here, because it makes sense in my head xD

I think refs need to start taking responsibility too, however. If anything, refs are one of the key pieces in this. If there's an obvious case of attempt at abuse going on, refuse to ref. Warn other refs what people are trying to do and encourage them not to ref it. Stops the abuse right in its tracks.

TP's kind of put this to rest now until we get a feel for how the rule change works in practice, so I guess we'll just see how things go.

 

I've said exactly these things I don't know how many times. I'm aware that one Pokemon can usually 2HKO the other - that's not a valid reason for the weaker one not to try at all. Intentionally speeding up the process, by the loser, is abuse, simple as that. You're deciding before the battle where the allocation of payments will go, and this is illegal. Always has been and we should have been policing it. The very definition of abuse in this case is intentionally predetermining the outcome of the battle. In a Fire vs Grass type battle, the outcome is mostly predetermined mechanically, but not by the user.

In your competitive example, the one who can't directly 2HKO with damaging moves will try something else to win.

I agree with you on the refs part. Refs are the ones who should be telling me/other Staff if people are throwing battles. They should also not be reffing them for their own sake, as it's likely the refs pay will be docked if we catch them doing it.

 

I'd just like to add on, people seem to think they should be able to evolve their Pokémon in a matter of minutes. If as soon as you get Surf in generation 5 you go and get the Larvesta egg, or trade in a low level Larvesta or Deino early in the game, does it take 5 minutes to evolve it into a Volcarona or Hydreigon? No, there's a good chance it won't even evolve until after you've beaten the Elite Four. Even after the game, raising a Deino from level 1 to level 64 is no easy matter. And that's just level evolutions. By any methods other than cheating, in RSE and DPPt, trying to evolve a Feebas into Milotic takes a ton of work to get all the Pokéblocks/Poffins you need. And if you mess up and give it too much sheen that it can't max its beauty and save, that Feebas can NEVER evolve into Milotic (unless you move it to generation 5). Happiness evolution too can take forever, especially on a traded Pokémon. Point is, in game evolutions aren't pathetically simple and mindless, why should URPG evolutions be?

Also, before this rule was implemented, I'd seen a set of 10 basics done in a minute, maybe 2 minutes tops. That pays $10,000/$5,000/$5,000, whereas a Champion battle that would be the highlight of your URPG with tons of work leading up to it and 4 most likely grueling Elite Four conquests that would most likely take several hours, it only pays $4,000/$3,000/$4,000, less for all participants involved. If the Champion defends his or her title, there is no reward other the money. In fact, you LOSE those 4 hard fought Elite Four wins and have to start that all over. This illustrates the point that basics have ALWAYS paid too much, so that you have to actually take even an hour or two, it's still quite a high pay relative to the time it takes. Much more important battles that drag on a lot longer don't pay nearly as much. Speaking of Champions though, I'm coming for you Pidge!

The problem with adjusting how basics works it doing it in a way that doesn't totally screw over new members. Reducing the pay to people who are evolving a Pokémon completely leaves a new member struggling for money if they don't immediately use art or stories, because even the park costs money that wouldn't be able to afford at the time.

Another problem with someone's suggestion of flat pay for all 7/10 battles is forum battles. Members who have real battles on the forums that do actually take a lot of time and effort also do them one by one and often with a variety of people. We can't just cut out forum battles altogether, so forcing battles to be done only in sets is completely impractical.

For anyone who questions my position on this, I am completely FOR this new rule, but I'm not sure if anything else can be practically done that doesn't unbalance some part of the system. If basics are being thrown, I am all for a pay cut on both the ref and the people involved because time/effort ≠ money. However, battles that are actually hard fought basics that take a long time should be allowed to pay more. It could be argued that cutting pay in half probably still doesn't make them pay too little relative to other battles that take about the same amount of time. Let's say a set of basics and a gym battle both take an hour. Half the pay for basics would make it $5,000/$2,500/$2,500 or $3,500/$1,750/$1,750. In the latter case the ref gets paid less than most gym battles, but in either case both battlers get paid more than the same result from a gym battle. So honestly cutting the pay in half probably isn't a bad idea EXCEPT THAT IT SCREWS OVER NEW MEMBERS. Even if we increase the starting money further, that doesn't help people who have already joined but didn't make much progress yet (speaking of which, was the money raised to $5,000 on the 21st when the first post was last edited, because I approved someone on the 20th and wasn't sure when I saw that if they should have gotten more money).

EDIT: About someone's mentioning of people not liking $250/$750: 4v4 loss pays $750, so I keep getting it because Winter keeps beating me in our 4v4 Randoms. It's also therefore easy to lost the $250/750 if you aren't a perfect battler.

 

Aren't the point of basics supposed to help new members get on their feet and get Pokemon that they can use in real battles? Winning or losing has never matter to me in URPG, tbh; yes, it can be frustrating to constantly lose battles because I lose battles all over the place. When I do win a real battle, it's a rare occasion. I'm not in this for the silly internet monies or always winning battles; I'm here to have fun and make new friends. If all I cared about was winning every battle, the game would have become boring. URPG has helped me get back into writing a bit, and it's helped me tap back into my creativity, and along the way, I'm learning more stuff and making new friends as I have fun.

When I first joined URPG, I lost my first basic battles. I didn't know about perma basics or how things were done here. I knew there was a branch on PWN, BMGf, and PE2K, and that we could write stories for Pokemon, but that was about it. I hadn't wrapped my head around things yet; I had just joined and brought myself into URPG looking to make friends and have fun playing a game with the hopes that my creativity would spark back up inside of me. I was crushed in the Gameboy Tournament that I decided to participate in for the fun of it; I bought Pokemon that sounded cool from the Poke Mart so that I would have 6 to use, & I was crushed. I didn't learn about perma basics until well after I had joined URPG, after I had joined the dojo league, and I didn't buy one until November 2012, a few months after I had joined. Why did I get a perma basic? Partially so that I could help others evolve their basics to be used in real battles without fear of being crushed, and partially because I lacked battle items. I was this new member who was still learning the ropes of URPG and competitive battling as a whole. I got battle items through my Lillipup, and after I pretty much had what I needed, I just kept him around to help out with basics battles when no one else had something to evolve. Lillipup also helped mediate between Ash & Airik when the latter tried to "steal" battles from the former, an issue that is no longer an issue, as I'd step in and say that if they couldn't figure it out, I'd battle in their place to eliminate the issue and so that whoever needed the basics could get them done. (Which, by the way, the whole fighting over basics thing was dumb. They're basics. You shouldn't have been fighting over them in the first place. Just do them & get them over with.)

With the addition of the new rule, I evolved my Lillipup and traded it away to Zoned for a Shellder. I had no interest in a Stoutland, and I didn't really want Lillipup anymore after the new rule was announced, so I traded it away to someone who could get more use out of it. There was no point in me keeping something that I no longer needed. However, also with the addition of a new rule, I can say that basics battles have taken much longer. Following the announcement of the new rule, I've received two Wurmple, an Oddish, and a Shellder, none of which were purchased from the mart -- two came from a story, one from art, and one from the aforementioned trade, and of those four basics, only two of them have been completed. One of the Wurmple has all of her basics battles and has evolved into a Beautifly, and my Oddish has enough battles to evolve into a Bellossom once I purchase the Sun Stone for her to evolve, however, in the meantime, she will be a Gloom that will stay out of battles unless she gets randomly rolled to participate in an FFA (because that's how I decide what I use in FFAs because I don't like having one specific Pokemon to use). My other Wurmple has 7 of the 10 battles required to evolve into a Dustox, and Shellder has 0 of the 7 battles she requires to evolve into a Cloyster (once I buy a Water Stone for that to happen).

Another issue with this new rule is that it's becoming hard to find a ref who's willing to ref all the battles. I understand all of the refs have personal lives outside of URPG and sometimes aren't always willing to ref. That's fine, I can understand that. However, if it's clearly a struggle to find a ref, and all of the other ones are busy, and you're not doing anything else besides chatting in URPG chat or browsing the internets, maybe you should try reffing. Even if it's only one or two battles, it helps out in the long run. No one's saying you have to ref all 7, 10, or however many battles at once, but the least you could do is ref something to help out. I feel like the idea is that all of the battles have to be reffed at once and completed right when someone asks, and that's not necessarily true. If it happens, it happens; if it doesn't, it doesn't. You just keep doing them until they get done. Even if you did one a day on AIM, it would still help out in the long run and it would probably help keep people from getting frustrated.

Lastly, I feel like basics are still getting thrown. I understand in some cases it's impossible for a specific person to win (like in the case of a Shellder and an Oddish), but when it's not really obvious who's going to win, a strategy is sort of formed as the battles progressed to see what makes them end the fastest. Once that strategy is formed, that combination of attacks is done, & the battles just get done faster, and it could be viewed as throwing the battle if that same strategy is done over and over again. It might just be me, but that's how I'm seeing it.

I'm also just curious, and I'm not really sure if this is the place for this, but do FFAs count towards the battles required for something to evolve? I'm hearing conflicting things on it. If they don't count, I feel like they should in light of the new rule, but only if the person sends for turn 1. If they just send & ditch, they don't get the battle.

 

Yes, FFAs count towards the evolution requirement.

I've been thinking about it and perhaaaaaps this basic rule was required, but making it so you cannot throw battles is complete shit. There needs to be a very very clear definition of "throwing battles". For example, using what was in Felly's post above: if someone is doing 7 battles between, say, a Gastly and a Ralts and the Ralts 2HKOs the Gastly with Psychic, is the Gastly obligated to try and find another way to beat the Ralts? What's the difference between throwing a battle and accepting that there is no way to win?

Another example: my Meditite is battling a Lickitung. Am I going to get banned for "throwing battles" by spamming Acupressure? My logic is that my strongest Fighting-type attack is Dynamicpunch but I better raise my accuracy first, because it's hit rate is bad. ?.?

 

Okay I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'd just like to point out that you said you didn't keep a perma for the money, yet got rid of it when it no longer produced any money.

Also, in the case of Shellder vs Oddish, if people don't want to be paid, Oddish wins in one turn unless Shellder goes for a Supersonic and it works well (in which case they would be paid because it wouldn't end in one turn), otherwise it's a 75/25 chance because Oddish needs to hit with either Sleep Powder or Stun Spore to OHKO with Petal Dance on the next turn before Shellder KOs with either Skill Link Icicle Spear x2 or Shell Smash + Skill Link Icicle Spear. Either way, there is a strategy either player can use to win it. Now I'm not going to say that's the case with all basics. I don't think there is a way Magikarp could possibly beat a Pikachu. However, most basics that learn more than a few moves have some move that gives them a (small) chance of winning and under this rule you're supposed to go for that. The problem comes in with determining if someone doesn't use that strategy because they didn't think of it or because they're trying to make it faster and/or easier for the ref. You wouldn't tell someone during a normal battle, "Why aren't you using this move so you have a better chance of winning?" and now basics are supposed to be treated mostly like normal battles. So I'm not sure what the solution for differentiating stupidity from abuse is without interfering in the situation of stupidity.

Okay, let me just say that DynamicPunch is a BM for Meditate and Hi Jump Kick is a stronger level up move. Also, Gastly beats Ralts because it's faster and Shadow Ball OHKOs if I calc'd it right. I think your point is valid, but your examples are awful. Also, Monbrey has been saying that FFAs don't count for evo requirement, and I've been assuming what he said as Head Ref was right and telling people that, but he just told me on AIM that it doesn't say anywhere "So lets just say that they do" count.

 

Yeah, I couldn't be arsed figuring out good ones. As long as my point gets across.

Regarding the FFA thing, Stinky and Ataro used to tell us noobs all the time that FFAs counted, so if Monbrey is saying that they don't that must have changed at some point lately and it is my bad.

 

Okay, consider the following scenario:

Petlil vs Marshtomp

Petlil's Leaf Storm can OHKO Marshtomp, but because of the OHKO rule, Petlil's user decided not to do this (because people like money).

However, Marhtomp's Ice Beam can 2HKO Petlil and is faster, meaning that because Petlil doesn't use Leaf Storm that first turn, it loses the battle.

Now tell me, isn't this an example of "throwing the battle to get paid?"

 

A lot of people have said this/something similar to this - whats the different between throwing a battle and being unable to win, and honestly it is a grey area. But for the most part, yes, use Confuse Ray instead of the same two moves that didn't work last time. Boost your stats, lower theirs, try whatever MIGHT work. I know there's still a good chance it wont.

For the most part, it should be the ref's responsibility to report if they think a battle has been intentionally set up with a pre-planned winner in mind. In a lot of basics match-ups there's a clear winner, and that can't be helped. The stronger basic will win. It's pretty obvious however if the stronger Pokemon is losing every match that they're throwing.

I honestly had no idea on the topic, and I never changed a rule in regards to it. I looked, and as far as I could tell there isn't a rule for it. I'm happy to allow FFA's to count.

 

For FFAs, as I said Monbrey just checked and didn't see anything about them not counting so said they could count. For basics, part of my point is that most basics (excluding things like Magikarp, Wurmple, Burmy, Beldum, etc.) there is SOME way you can try to win assuming your opponent doesn't go for a faster OHKO. The question is, is the battler smart enough to see it? In a battle early, someone was battling Meditite vs Archen and Meditate kept trying to Hi Jump Kick even though it was clear Hi Jump Kick wouldn't OHKO and Wing Attack 2HKO'd. If Meditite's trainer had used Force Palm, there would be at least some chance of winning if it paralyzed (may have also need a fully paralyzed depending if Archen's trainer goes for Quick Attack and that KOs, but there's still a chance). It's hard to tell, but personally I think that particular battler didn't think of using Force Palm for the par. However, if a trainer knew they could do that and still used Hi Jump Kick (unless they had BM Bullet Punch to finish it off), THAT'S throwing the battle.

Petilil should use Chlorophyll and use Sunny Day turn one to be faster and OHKO turn two.

 

That's another point. How can you tell how "smart" someone is, and what you expect them to be able to do? If the Meditite one was real and I kept using Acupressure, a ref would probably be able to call me out on being facetious, and rightly so. However, in that Petilil vs Marshtomp? I legitimately never would have thought of that.

This is literally my whole beef. You cannot predict or make rules about trains of thought because no one has the same one. Ash is a pro battler and can see lots of ways around things easily. In comparison, I (a seasoned battler with like three years of URPG under my belt) frequently make stupid decisions, or fail to see the clear way to victory.

Furthermore, going back to the Meditite thing. Why should I be FORCED to use the best moves possible? What if I really really like Dynamicpunch (I actually do)? Just because it's not the optimal route and it's probably going to cost me the battle, am I not allowed to use it? If I do my 7 basic battles but only win one or two because I spam Dynamicpunch, is that now breaking the rules? If so, that's bullshit - battles should be fun, not a regimented list of responses and counter-responses.

 

To me, the Petlil vs Marshtomp thing is valid both ways. If you don't see the way around getting 2HKO'd, you lose. But I wouldn't do the same thing that made me lose in the next battle - I'd try something else. You've got 5 shots to realize that through either raising your speed or lowering Marshstomps (don't know if Petlil can do that, but my point is that it's speed that matter) you can win the match.

As for Meditite, you'd still be attempting a strategy that has a chance of winning, dice permitting. You'd be using a high powered move instead of an obviously worse option, such as if you were instead electing to use Tackle when literally any fighting move Meditite knows would be a better option.

I don't see why everyone is so up-in-arms over this. We're not going to penalize anyone for losing a battle that they actually made a valid attempt in. We're not telling anyone that they absolutely have to win if there's a way that it's possible to. It's actually really obvious if someone is making an effort or not. We're telling you not to plan that you're going to lose all ten battles before you even started, because this is abuse. Even if you're not intending to abuse the system for your own profit, you're letting someone else abuse it by losing, and thus assisting in abuse of the system.

Yeah, if your Weedle is battling a Charmander you can probably predict that it will lose all ten. But use Poison Sting instead of String Shot.

 

Let me also say, in addition to Sunny Day I see 6 other moves Petilil could use to beat Marshtomp with Ice Beam and not OHKO: Absorb, Mega Drain, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Sleep Powder, and Stun Spore. The first four give it enough HP to survive the second Ice Beam (Giga Drain OHKOs and therefore doesn't help), Sleep Powder stops the second Ice Beam from happening, and Stun Spore lets you move first the next turn. What is the chance that the battler legitimately tries and doesn't think of 7/16 of Petilil's moves in what is likely 7 battles, especially considering that if they're trying not to OHKO that rules out 3 of their moves, meaning if they use a different move every battle they are guaranteed to stumble on at least one of them. I have trouble finding a situation where Pokémon who get a decent size level up moveset (meaning not stuff like Magikarp, Weedle, Caterpie, Wurmple, etc.) don't have a chance in battles where people seem to think they'd just lose.

 

How did this start getting into wall-of-text territory? Seriously?

The basic gist I'm getting is "treat 1v1s like any other battle". If you were in a battle and could either use Dynamicpunch and lose, or use some other move and win (and let's assume you know full well about this other move, and you know the outcome of both of these moves), are you telling me you'd use Dyanmicpunch just because you "prefer" it to whatever the other move is? You're not being forced to use this other move, but one would hope you'd want to use it for your own sake. Apply the same reasoning to 1v1 battles. And let's be honest, people say it's about taking part, but winning is quite fun, wouldn't you agree? :3

 

I honestly would really appreciate it if curators were paid. :< I understand the the Art Section of the URPG is really...dead, but I, for instance, have, like...been waiting For over half a year.

Yeah, I mean I completely understand that those were all on PXR...whose URPG doesn't get much traffic. Ash K. Quoted my post from PXR onto Bulbagarden in the snooty art discussion, but...still nothing. At least, I don't believe so. I could be mistaken, but I mean...I have four pretty decent critiques I posted up that were just left unpaid. And when you're told that you're gonna get paid--despite it being fictional currency--and fail to do so, it's a little disgruntling. And I'm really not trying to sound like an ass here, and if I do sound snide I am sorry. However, I'm...getting tired of being patient since it's gotten me nowhere. I also know that I haven't actively been in URPG lately, but payment would still be greatly appreciated. ^^; Thank you. Here's a link to the post, by the way.
http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f625/snooty-art-discussion-128927/index11.html#post5441273

I also want to apologize if this isn't the right place to...well, bring this up. No one was hearing me in the Snooty Art Discussion. Also, who do I even contact about this? Monbrey? He's...been gone for a while, I think. Winter?

Who?

 

I'm pretty much always here, however my running of the Art section has been almost completely non-existent I admit. Nobody is available to take over the administration of the section.

I'll make sure you get paid

 

Thanks a bunch, Monbrey. Again sorry if I sounded a little asshat-y. xD