URPG Issues

Not even going there.

However, I actually agree with the mods on this one. The answer to "1v1s with no pay are boring" in a nutshell: Don't do them.

Seriously, no-one is forcing you to give up your time for no reward. No-one is forcing you to do these so-called "un-fun" things. As Monbrey said, it was completely your decision to do the basics battles instead of whatever else. I very rarely do basics battles, because of how much of a process they've become.

But ok, let's dissect this.

1) Your entire argument basically implies money = fun (unless you're trying to tell me I'm missing a vital non-monetary difference between getting 2HKO'd ten times without pay and getting 2HKO'd ten times with pay with makes the latter fun. If that is the case, I'd LOVE to know what it is), and from what I assume, that's the warped thinking the mods are trying to dispel. Also, if you take an hour (or worse, two hours) to do 7/10 1v1s, even without "throwing" them, you're doing them wrong.

2) "Basics are fewer"[citation needed]. Also, even if there are less basics, doesn't mean that "balances out" the money they give out. There's also no "limited supply of basics"

3) "People want to be on the level of others and fight competitively" How is this limiting it at all?

4) Once upon a time, all battles (including fully evo'd 1v1s) paid. I had it WAAAY easier than you. The system never changed to make it more lax, so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

5) I lol'd at "people do permabasics to be nice". If that were the case, this wouldn't even be a discussion and you'd gladly do it without pay. And once again, if you don't like proper basic battles, don't do them. The truth is, you could very well do something productive at the same time as the basics, so any time-wasting that goes on is just from poor management of the party involved.

At the end of the day, basics are always going to be "un-fun". That's never going to change. So, while we're doing the whole "dissecting what URPG stands for" thing (which, by the way, you did wrong - it's Ultra): Ultra ROLE-PLAYING Game. ROLE-PLAYING. R.O.L.E.HYPHEN.P.L.A.Y.I.N.G. Just embrace them and MAKE them fun. Try and strategise. Try and win. Or if that still doesn't work, as a last resort money being banned for the permabasic means the perma has no incentive to not OHKO anymore. Do that and they'll take even less time. You're welcome.

 

Stop crying, grow up, and battle like it should be done, not for convenience. I have long said perma's need to be banned for this reason. It has already been decided, and implemented, it's not going to change. Instead of wasting time complaining, go find another way to abuse the system if you are that concerned.​

 

To Monbrey:

While I don't quite agree with everything you've said, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my points. I see what you mean about everything besides my point about doing one thing or the other: Either take away all money and allow thrown battles, or try to enforce real basics and let people have the money. I honestly don't see how either of those could be exploited. And even if they are, why couldn't mods punish the singular perpetrators instead of everyone in the URPG? I understand that you probably won't change the rule, and I won't like it, but I still think it's not necessary to enforce both rules.

Okay, you know what, you two, way to debate and not insult the person making an argument. Extremely mature. At least Monbrey had the decency to treat me respectfully.

To Kid Beano:

I WANT to do 1v1's for people. Do you know why? Because it promotes new members, helps them evolve their Pokemon, and become a viable URPGer. I don't always have an evolving basic around. So, perma-basic! Bam, now we have a way to help those new people. My only problem with this new system is that we now have to work at battles with no reward. Here is my formula for a 1v1 with a permabasic that doesn't suck for senior members who just want to do things to help out:

A) Keep the 'no money earned for permabasics' rule... in fact, take money away from basics, but let people throw battles.

B) Enforce that people don't throw battles on purpose, but let them have a little reward for their effort.

I don't think it would be logical to choose the second option, simply because you'll be trying to control how people battle and I don't like it.

1) My entire argument isn't that basics are fun. Basics are boring, no matter what. But making us pull eye teeth for them is dumb. And the reason it took so long for my battle was because I was trying to win and stalled with confusion and flinches, plus the ref got busy a couple of times in the middle.

2) People ARE buying less basics. The main income of basics are now starting to trend towards art, stories, and RP, which is awesome, but makes for less overall basics at one time for people to battle 'normally' with.

3) People do want to be on par with the evolved, EM'd Pokemon that are around. Everyone wants 'to be the very best', no? And having to spend all that time and effort on basics makes it boring and time-consuming. WV has come to me with a comment on her part, saying that battles between basics used to be roleplayed out a bit. Now, that's pretty cool and kind of fun. However, RPing isn't for everyone--some people hate writing and just want Pokemon battles. But, isn't URPG supposed to be for everyone?

4) Well, I am sorry if I am wrong about that. I got the impression from other players that it used to be harder to do basics and such around here. If you were around longer and had a different experience, then it was different for you than the others.

5) I DO do basics to be nice. I don't hog them either, and rarely do them outside of trying for Pickup or evolving my own Pokes. Earning 5K and maybe getting a Pickup isn't really all that much unless someone hogs up all the basics and gets a lot of money--which is why this was started in the first place. Either someone needs to watch and make sure people don't do that (pounce on every basic) or half/take away the money earned for every basic.

And thank you for that last paragraph. Thinly veiled raging at someone who is only trying to put her input into URPG as a fair player and active participant is so classy.

To ATF:

Excuse you for that biting comment. You need to apologize, because I have never tried to abuse anything. I abide by all the rules and have done nothing to warrant your patronizing tone. Perhaps you should do your research and see that I have never broken any rules, complained about much of anything, contributed to URPG as best I can, and worked hard to learn how to battle properly and get the right EMs for all of my existing Pokemon. I don't have a huge list of Pokemon, I have never tried to buy tons of basics simply for monetary gain, and I do not try to exploit the system. I'm not sorry that I had something to say about the new rules that have suddenly been implemented that make a change in the URPG I first joined. I have the right to put my comments and complaints here in this thread. It's what it's FOR. Stop bullying people that have opinions.

 

I'll try to be a little more detailed on that point.

If we remove ALL money for basics, and allow the battle to be thrown, then to me it seems they might as well not exist (which was actually suggested, no more basics). They're not a real battle AND they have no reward, meaning that there is absolutely no benefit in conducting them at all besides the evolution.
If you have two battlers and a ref who genuinely don't care about the money and just want to skip through the set ASAP, a Fully Evolved Pokemon can OHKO the basic 10 times. It wont pay anyone anything, but the basic will evolve. If evolving basics without a permabasic DOES become a very big issue and two parties with evolving basics are never available, I would probably consider implementing some small FIXED reward for conducting 10 OHKO's or thrown battles, for the older members who care more about the evo than the profits. This would only be something like a flat payment of $1000 for all parties involved. This would be balanced, and prevent the abuse of the possible $10,000/$5,000 profits.

The other option of enforcing "real" basics, I assume you're referring to battling with a permabasic and trying to win. Unfortunately, this usually results in an ever bigger case of abuse. Instead of using Pokemon like Meowth or Eevee or anything else that is intended to LOSE the battle, permabasics will then become TM'd Scythers, Porygon-2's, and any other high-powered basic form that can curb-stomp it's competition. Before all these thrown battles were happening, this is how permabasics were used, however we fined those responsible for abusing the battling system.

Given the recent events, we had considered fining people again. However, since many members such as yourself were introduced to the system in a manner that suggested this was the correct way of doing things, we decided against punishing anyone. That's also the reason I'm taking the time to discuss the issue with you, and anyone else in your situation. I have very little patience for veterans who know how wrong this method is, but defend it anyway for profits, which is also where MK and ATF's strong opinions come from. If I were dealing with veterans, my conduct would probably be the same as theirs.

 

ATF is actually the nice one. You should meet his brother.

 

Obligatory

 

I'd just like to quickly point out that Ash K and Morru started a 4v4 a little after our basics started and ended a little before ours ended, which makes sense based on the whole "effort should be equal to payout" mentality that permeates through the whole issue. In fact, when you think about it the 2k/1.5k/.75k a ref and the battlers (respectively) get from participating in a 4v4, it still doesn't at all compare to the 5k/10k/5k they would get from 10 ("legal") basics. Based on the logic that you guys seem to be pushing should basics take about the length of an FFA (and a large one at that), at least several hours ?

The real problem is that basics pay way too much. They're a totally insignificant part of the URPG and should be treated as such. All of these rules are jumping through hoops to fix the issue that veterans are abusing the system. But realistically no one actually likes to do basics. People just want to get them over with as quickly as possible because the end result is what they really want, the fully evolved Pokemon (and whatever cash they can make). I sort of understand the concern with new members being confused about the way battles work when they are handed wins on a silver platter, but just make the payout relative to the payout of a normal battle and veterans won't take advantage of it. If it makes more sense for someone to do a regular battle instead of abuse basics, they'll do the regular battle. If you're that worried about new members getting money then just give them more money to start with....

These loops are just really roundabout and obnoxious. The intentions were good and there seemed to be a good amount of debate on the staff boards about whether they should be implemented, but there didn't seem to be enough debate over what should be done. The way I see it there's a "golden ratio" of reward:effort that the officials are trying to obtain. Before this, the ratio was way too high so you tried to raise the amount of effort needed. However, the better step would've been to lower the reward. I also think the administration is too proud to admit they were wrong and revoke their decision so I doubt anything is going to come of this discussion....

 

Excuse me, I never personally attacked you at all. The most I did was mock your rather patronising "G.A.M.E". I've not treated you with any disrespect and have no intention of doing so.

As I said before, if you're willing to do 1v1s to help people, then the money should only be an afterthought. It's a rather selfish mindset to think "Yes, I'll help you evolve your Pokemon, but only because I know I will get something in return". We should be encouraging "Yes, I'll help you evolve your Pokemon, because I know it's the right thing to do". I, too, have a permabasic, but mostly for novelty value - I only used it to basics battle if someone was desperate and couldn't get anyone else. I never did it for the money, only accepting it out of courtesy for the URPG rules.

Again with "want to do things to help out". That should be the reward in itself. Not money.

I already pointed out, throwing battles can't be policed. Just don't be obvious and use Leer or whatever - the difference in effort to type an actual attacking move is negligible.

See above about helping being its own reward.

Agreed. Attempting to police the validity of 1v1s is pointless.

I said your entire argument was that MONEY = fun. You originally implied that basics battles are no fun unless there's pay. Your example of the failed Pickup rolls implied that had you gotten a successful Pickup, you would not have been annoyed or frustrated. That implies it obviously wasn't the actual basics battling that irked you, but rather your lack of gain from them. Again, not what the URPG should be encouraging.

I'm still not understanding the relevance. Permabasics aren't banned. So, if you have a mon that needs evolving, just find someone with a perma. You still get paid. Goes back to not being blatant with the throwing.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with the effort required for basics. They honestly shouldn't take you more than half an hour at most. If you're willingly extending the battles to turn it into a more 'competitive fight', then one would only assume you don't care about the effort you place in.

Oh, on Bulbagarden, it's been on the current-ish system for as long as I can remember. I date back to when it was just on Pe2k, and that was a whole different story.

If isn't all that much, then why is it a big deal? Again, 1v1s are near impossible to police, so really the only option the mods have is to eliminate any possibilities for people to take advantages of loopholes. It's stopping the people who don't need the battles from taking advantage of them, while also keeping the people who DO need the battles from being disadvantaged. Unfortunately, that is going to affect some people who are playing fair, but overall, it just creates a fairer playing field.

Like I said, that wasn't a personal attack. Just a snide way of showing how patronising that bolded part was. The fact you took offence to it proves my point, really.

EDIT:

Have to jet off so no time to go through your post Elamite. However:

The majority being pro-something does not make the minority who are anti-it wrong. Having said that, to accuse the mods of fighting for a cause they don't believe in is absurd.

 

We often admit we are wrong, when we actually are wrong. This is not one of those times.

This is a very complex decision that incorporates a lot of different factors. It's not just about the profit/reward. It's not just about evolution. You raised a good point about basics being way more profitable than a 4v4, yet then continue to seem to be against the fact that I lowered the reward. If you're suggesting it should be lowered for the evolving user and the ref also, that's a valid suggestion, and one that was considered and may still be considered.

In all honestly, the staff were largely divided on this matter, and its not a sort of issue that really promotes compromise. Every and any solution that was suggested was effectively an absolute in one way or another. Those that weren't absolute generally didn't solve the issue at all. In the end the discussion was going around in circles and producing no effective resolutions, so I made a final decision on the matter based on what was one of the more popular decisions amongst the staff. I'm not claiming it's perfect, or it was a unanimous decision, because it wasn't.

What I find hilarious is that people are calling this a wrong decision 24 hours after it's implementation. Your sample size must be really effective to draw these conclusions. In a week or two if the economy is broken because of this, or Pokemon become impossible to evolve then yes, there will be SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE that my decision was wrong, and from that point we can look at revising the solution.

The main complaint we're getting is not "How do I evolve my Pokemon now?" or "Well how do I make money?". It's "What use is my permabasic now?" The resounding answer is that it's not much use, because it never should have been. We're giving everyone's little punching bags a well deserved reprieve, and returning the system to the state it should have been maintained in.

@KidBeano; Thanks for telling people to keep throwing battles in a more sneaky way. Super helpful to the URPG honour system.

 

Yea sorry, I meant this exactly. I guess I should have specified that I meant all participants in the basics should have their pay cut.

 

Fair enough. The outcome we want isn't for people to continue to use permabasics for no rewards - it was to stop using permabasics altogether and battle properly to earn the original reward.

It is yet to be seen if the URPG will adapt to this, or if we will have to continue addressing the issue.

I'm aware that the argument of "in my day" isn't the best one, and I'm not suggesting that this is how things HAVE to be done, its just an example. My early basics were conducted one battle at a time - not in sets of ten. I'm aware that this isn't as easy to do now as it was when I started - the userbase is much smaller. However I frequently participated in 2v2 basics, or 2v2 basic/FE battles against a variety of different members before my Pokemon were evolved. Nobody considered this to be a problem simply because it was normal at the time. I honestly don't think I would have stayed in the URPG had I been introduced to a culture where evolving your starter, or any other Pokemon, was a complete farce of a battle.

We're attempting to encourage this basic battling culture again. I'm not surprised this decision isn't popular among hardcore battlers, which is why there are still alternatives to evolve Pokemon as quickly as possible - they just don't provide any reward. I am somewhat surprised that the decision it isn't supported by our more roleplay and story centered members though, who I would have though appreciated a larger emphasis on the roleplay aspect of the URPG. I'm not even suggesting that the battles need to be conducted in a roleplay manner - it's simply character progression.

 

I don't disagree with what you said, but the problem is, lowering the reward can't be done further. I suggested halving basics pay to $250, but the problem with that is that uneven money is unpopular with many people, most notably including HKim. The only other option is to raise the price of everything else to accommodate basics, which is far from ideal.

I'll also add that eliminating quick basics is not at all a bad thing. It's less convenient definitely, but eliminating predetermined battles, which fit the definition of abuse, is good for URPG. Whether or not some people like it, without any offense to you.

 

Apologize? You have me confused with someone who cares.

Now, did I quote your post? No. It wasn't aimed at you, it was a statement in general because I know other people are of the same opinion. Not going to sugar coat it. Giving it to you straight as I see it. I see it as abuse. Period.​

 

Why not just assign a flat rate for a set of basics? 2000 for winner 1000 for loser and 1000 for ref seems about appropriate (though it could be argued for less). I would say that 7 quick basics is pretty equivalent to 10, so those would be flat fees. And finally, you have to be involved in all of the battles in order to get paid. No splitting them with different people (too cumbersome, in my opinion).

@AmericanTreeFrog
A rule was made that was clearly something you were an advocate of. So naturally, instead of listening to anyone else's opinion you add absolutely nothing to the discussion and just say that people with opposing opinions are wrong. Let me direct you to KidBeano's words:

"The majority being pro-something does not make the minority who are anti-it wrong...."

My favorite part about your imbecilic post was that Monbrey (the person who implemented the rule by the way) said something which directly contradicts with the following statement (from your post):

"It has already been decided, and implemented, it's not going to change. "

(Monbrey's quote: In a week or two if the economy is broken because of this, or Pokemon become impossible to evolve then yes, there will be SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE that my decision was wrong, and from that point we can look at revising the solution.)

Though I thank you, because you exactly proved my point that the administration is extremely hesitant to revoke any decision they make and are instead more likely to throw more rules on top to make it work (which is what resulted in the chain of basic rules we currently have). Monbrey and I were actually having a good discussion about an alternative to the action that was implemented if you would actually like to be a contributing member of the discussion. Don't post a response directed at me concerning your actions in this thread because I'm not going to read it. If you are so inclined to impress me you're welcome to PM/IM me, but a personal fight is not fit for this thread.

Anyway, Monbrey, I guess I understand what you're saying about the basics culture. However, I think that one of the park Mods (Chains) and a head of the Drawing forum (Protobabe) have expressed considerable distaste for the current system demonstrates the disapproval beyond the "competitive" group of the URPG should be an indication that the more "role-playing" members of the URPG are dissatisfied too, meaning pretty much no one is happy (excluding those whose idea it was (see above!)). In fact I haven't really seen any positive reaction to this implementation at all...

Also I think it's fair that the "competitive" members are upset. I mean, not to speak on behalf of that subset (which I'm not totally sure exists but separate issue), but this whole implementation is a huge knock on them. If they spend the time to do something (even if it is quick) shouldn't they be rewarded in some fashion? Also it isn't like those "role-playing" members didn't appreciate the quickness of basics either. I think the flat fee solution poses as a compromise to both parties, and severely limits any chance of abuse. People are still free to battle their basics competitively if they so wish, but it doesn't shove it down everyone else's throats.

 

I'm not debating a damn thing. Also, nowhere did I say somebody was wrong. I put in my opinion. I'm not going to give you the reason why that is. If you don't like what I said, ignore it, don't quote or mention me then blast me for what I put down.​

 

I really don't understand how you can accuse us of being extremely hesitant. It's been less than 48 hours since I implemented the rule change - no sensible governing body would revoke a change that quickly, as it simply isn't enough time to see how the mechanics of it will play out. A couple of weeks is an incredibly reasonable timeframe to see how the URPG dynamic changes - it may even take longer. We might throw more rules on, we might scale it back, we might do nothing. We don't know at this stage, and anyone who presumes to know the future course of action is arrogant, stupid or both.

In all honestly, I hate that we've enforced so many rules, because I hate that we had to. The community has proven time and time again that they simply cannot be trusted not to abuse the system if left unpoliced. I'm not directing these accusations at anyone, because it got to the point that people didn't even realize their conduct was abuse, and I blame myself and the staff as a whole for not reacting sooner.

I'm sorry I have to put it so bluntly, but I do not care that people do not like this rule change. I knew damn well that this would not be a popular rule change, but I didn't change it for the sake of making everybody's day to day lives easier. It was changed for the sake of the game, because for too long people have been abusing loopholes in our system.

For the most part, people's personal opinions about the fact that basics are now harder, or that they can't make money easily will not result in this rule being revised. However if by being this strict on basic battles the system becomes broken in another way, such as evolutions not being possible, then the system can and will be revised.

Overall people are still missing the point. The purpose of this change was to address the abuse of permabasics by not changing their use, but eliminating their use in 1v1's entirely. It was also to address the fact that predetermining the outcome of a battle, even basics, has ALWAYS been illegal. This is why I've been quite self-damning about the staff not policing that at all, which goes to show how ridiculously acceptable it had become. Otherwise, basic battles have not been touched. 1v1's with basics that do need to evo can still be conducted with full pay the way they should have always been conducted; without a predetermined outcome, in a manner that actually has to be reffed.

 

I am perfectly fine with giving the rule it's run for a few weeks until we figure out how it works out, even though I don't like it at all. I feel like, after a couple of days of thinking it over, it might make people slow down on using permas purely for the purpose of making a profit, though it's still REALLY annoying to do basics this way. I can see how others have messed this up for some of the community, though I don't think it necessary to make such a rule change. However, I am not a moderator, so there's only so much I can complain about an issue I have with how URPG works. Thank you for reading all of these and answering questions and responding to suggestions, Monbrey.

 

No problem. The fact that it was such a fast and drastic rule change is why I've been willing to talk about it and explain the reasoning behind it from our perspective.

I totally understand why people feel this rule is unfair. However as I've said, the rule was unfortunately for the benefit of game mechanics and economy, not the community. It remains to be seen if changes to the mechanics still need to be implemented to allow for those who still intend to use the system properly.

 

Stop posting then if you are just going to be oppressive, sensitive, AND offer absolutely nothing to the discussion. You're inciting people to respond to you with your diction, yet you get irritable when they call you up on it. If you didn't want a response, don't post. This is a message board after all.

I agree with Monbro, since people can actually make considerable money by doing something that requires little thought or effort. Some people argue that the URPG is supposed to be a fun and relaxing game, but that's not true. The URPG isn't a game, it's more of an experience where you see how long you can go through it without stopping. The G is simply a misnomer. There's no end goal or win condition. And changing this about basics doesn't make it less fun or relaxing, it just makes it easier. I guess you could say that easier games are funner, but in the end if everyone has everything they want, their collection doesn't mean as much. Is it fun to have a bunch of stuff that is easily obtainable?.

And it would be hard to define what 'throwing a battle' was. If it was a judgment call, there could still be uncertainty.

I think the most legitimate argument is that basics are hard to come by. That's probably due to inactivity and that people have much funner and better things to do. You could try attracting more people or destroying the other things people do instead of URPG.

And yes, rules can change and will change. Whether this one does or not we don't know, but it's always possible, unless everyone in charge suddenly disappears I guess.

Oh and by the way its U.R.P.G. ULTRA ROLE PLAYING GAME U.L.T.R.A.
adjective
1. going beyond what is usual or ordinary; excessive; extreme.

last time i checked we didn't build a humongous peanut to fly to the fictional planet Jupiter in order to the stop the incoming flood of magic puff ball cream creatures capable of increasing the distance we can hear by 400% because that would kinda suck you wouldn't want to be like a dog dogs are kinda smelly but can be cute

 

Honestly, a lot of the time one of the basic Pokemon will still get curbstomped. The difference is whether you try a couple of different combinations of moves (you might as well if you're losing anyway), hope for the right dice roll that drops their stats, causes a confusion smack, whatever, as opposed to the intentional use of a completely ineffective move to lose the battle as quickly as possible.