"Secrecy" of the Staff Board

I can summarise the majority of Staff Forum posts in a pretty short list:

• "Can a Mod sticky this please?"
• "Hey, is this change is a good idea?/Do you mind if I change this?"
• "Do you think this is a cool new event/feature/idea?"
  If the general consensus is yes, next thing we do is either announce it to you all, or discuss the idea with members we think would be interested.
• "Should we run *insert auction/event here* and who will host it?"
• "Member X is doing this wrong/cheating/etc, what should we do?"
  Obviously this is what we can't share and I don't think anyone has disputed this.

I can understand the point that we could discuss the new events/ideas more openly, but for the most part it works better if we don't. Ever heard the phrase "Too many cooks spoil the broth."? It's pretty applicable here. Even amongst the small group of Officials/Mods we have, we often find ourselves disagreeing on what the best way to do something is, or having too many ideas for a specific event or feature. In the end, it's fairly simple to work out the best options and then announce whatever we decided to all of you guys.
Instead, I want you to think about what happens if we have another 20 people pitching ideas for an event. In some cases this could produce some good ideas. But more often we'd get the same sort of discussion that happens on AIM when people know there's an event coming. "The prize should be/you should auction this Pokemon!" or "Who cares, no-one does contests". There becomes too many voices to handle, not all of them constructive in the first place.

If you have an idea, tell one of us, and we'll let the others know. Tournament ideas are generally the most popular. If we think it's feasible to run, next thing you know you'll probably be running a tournament with a staff member's assistance.

As I said in the address when TE was banned, we are always open to suggestions and discussion. If you ask about something I'm free to speak about, then you'll probably get a straight answer from me. And before someone draws a comparison to me brushing TE off as spreading rumours, I've already addressed that.

He WAS spreading rumours.

 

Adding on; the difference between TE and Haze was that TE received the 'information' from this someone and decided to spread it around to gain attention. When confronted, he lied repeatedly and had a complete lack of disrespect for the Staff whom had confronted him courteously, whereas Haze had simply leaked.

We probably wouldn't even have banned him (at all/for that long) if he had just came clean from the start, instead of the repetitive lies (regardless of whether he knew who was it that leaked it to him) and the complete disrespect.

With that being said, I agree completely that if you guys (the members of the URPG) really feel that an update thread is necessary, it really isn't any trouble at all to create a thread and fill it with updates. Of course, like what others had already said, the issue of whether it's really necessary would be a consideration that needs to be taken. I also agree that you're right about how we should have just briefly announced that we might be having a potential expansion.

If we're truly going to exercise and finally practice openness, we're going to have to consider the only appropriate topics that should remain in Staff, and how others would just go into Trainer's Court. I think part of the dilemma that most of us might be having is because of how we start a discussion, for perhaps, a new Tournament idea that will be put in place. Then along with some of the useful comments and opinions, the thread will also be filled with random and useless comments (not directing towards anyone in particular). It then becomes sort of annoying when you're putting out an idea, and it gets unnecessarily long and discussed back and forth, while the pages are being filled with useful comments and random and unproductive one-liners.

 

This isn't the first time he has brought this up. What I continue to fail to see each time he brings it up is the problem here. His main argument is that the URPG as a whole had no input whatsoever. Although I personally don't agree with that, I could understand how he might feel that way IF he had an exmaple of where the staff did/released something he had a serious problem with. He has mentioned the TE incident in the General Chat thread, while at the same time, admitting to not reading the thread about his ban beforehand. His other complaint was the staff's denial of TPW which, as Chainy already mentioned, we are not actually aware of happening and has yet to have been documented.

Essentially, and I believe I speak for the whole staff when I say this, I am a bit annoyed that he is constantly rallying against myself and the staff, accusing of us keeping things from the URPG, when he has no basis for this argument. I'm also annoyed how he claims to not be the only one bothered by this supposed, "problem", but I have yet to see anyone other than yourself, who is inactive, to post in his support. I'd hardly call two people public outcry. In addition, I'm downright pissed off that he has the nerve to put that statement in his first post, as if we our heads are so far up our asses that we would respond with an argument as simple and backwards as "We are the staff, so stfu."

EDIT:

Putting aside my rage for a moment, I'd also like to point out that, even before the creation of this thread, no staff member opposed keeping the URPG more informed. Some of us didn't see the point of a weekly update thread though. There is not nearly enough going on to justify an entire thread for staff updates. We could just occasionally post a message here or there in the General Chat thread.

 

Oh, sorry, I posted in my first post that I 'missed the drama'. That must mean that I never read the thread, and will never read the thread from that point onwards. Logic used at its best right there.

:/

I never said I hadn't read the thread. I have read the thread, I'll have you know. I just feel that since leaking from the staff boards is not an offence (which you have undeniably proved by not punishing Haze), I question what the huge thing was with trying to find the culprit in the first place. Yes, ok, TE was uncooperative and rude, and should have some form of punishment, but since what he was hiding wasn't actually punishable by URPG rules, it just leaves a lot to be questioned. But, this isn't what this thread is about, so I would rather it not be brought up here.

My problem? Okay. Let's get hypothetical. Imagine the leaks had never happened, and you'd announced the expansion with all the grandeur that you had anticipated, announcing that TPW had accepted us, and we were all set to expand, we just needed to get a few things straight. Now, imagine you were met with uproar and anger from everyone, because they didn't want to go to TPW, or because feelings had changed about an expansion since the previous thread. You have two options:

1. Continue with the expansion (not a good idea)
2. Cancel the expansion and have to tell TPW that the URPG members did not feel their forum was appropriate. (Because that doesn't make us look like elitist jerks, and doesn't make TPW look stupid by having to backtrack and retract something from their round-up thread.)

So, in one short sentence, my problem is that the expansion information was held from us for such a time, that by the time it was announced, turning back would be detrimental if it all blew up in your face.

About that statement, it was due to this post that I said it. Y'know, the one where Stinky's head is so far up his ass that he responded with an argument as simple and backwards as "We are the staff, so stfu". Believe it or not, I'm not some brat who blurts out accusations and assumes all the staff are against me. I'm just under the impression that if I was to act that way to mod, I'd most likely be punished (similar to TE, perhaps?). Yet, when Stinky acts that way to me, the tables are turned.

I also pointed out in this post senior members who shared my opinion, including Pidge himself. Also, T_T said that in retrospect, being a little more out about it wouldn't have hurt, and Ataro, in the very post above yours, says he feels it should've been at least mentioned.

The whole "no basis for saying we're hiding things" - Monbrey's post implies that TE is wrong about the expansion. Yes, ok, I thought it was more than it was when I first made this thread, and on looking back, realised my error, but the fact still stands that Chainy's claiming "You can talk to mods", yet it seems more like "You can talk to mods, but don't expect a reply". Seriously, the question I have repeatedly asked is how would mentioning (key word right there - NOT explaining/detailing/announcing) the expansion have been detrimental to its progress?. That's the main question I would like you to answer, if nothing else.

Also, to the people complaining about this topic popping up - that's the reason I took it out of URPG Chat and into the Trainer's Court. No-one's forcing you to read it. If you don't want to, don't.

 

We all know about Chain requesting stickys xDDDDDDddddd

jk tho

Also, could it be because the mods are so proud and think theyre so mighty that they think the rest of us are scum!?!?!

omg discuss

 

@LS the Door Mat

You're not even remotely constructive and the discussion, although heated, was going well. Don't post just to be inflammatory.

@PichuBoy

I've always had a very strong dislike for hypothetical arguments. They serve no real purpose. You're arguing about the POSSIBILITY of something happening that DIDN'T happen, and I fail to see in any way how that provides a factual basis for you point.

Hypothetically, a meteor could be knocked off course and crash into the planet tomorrow, killing all of us. And then we'll have missed our chance to announce the TPW expansion! Woe is us, why didn't we tell everyone sooner!

I realise that yes, this is an over-exaggeration and ridiculous example. I also realise that we could probably be accused of the same - not releasing the information immediately for fear of members not being happy or causing problems, and these are hypothetical situations also. The difference between a hypothetical future event is that we don't yet know what will happen, and we attempt to make our best judgement based on more than one possible situation. A hypothetical past event has already been conclusively proven by that pesky little reality thing NOT to have happened - hence it's not much use in an argument.

As for my post "implying he was wrong", he was. There's no double expansion. We have nothing in place to facilitate a move to GTS+ at all at the moment. We agreed we should probably try there next, and that was it. And thanks to him and those working with him, we currently have no focus on moving to TPW either.

Now for that super important question you put in bold.

How would mentioning (key word right there - NOT explaining/detailing/announcing) the expansion have been detrimental to its progress?

I will admit that mentioning the expansion would probably not have been detrimental. I also don't think it would have been beneficial. And most of all, I'd like to point out that if it weren't for people disrespecting our privacy and breaking the rules, then this shitstorm never would have happened. And you would have all found out about TPW in a nice little announcement that you so very strongly insist on having. Since you found out another way, the whole argument seems to be "OMG WHY DIDN'T THEY ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY!"

I'm not going to definitively state that we know better because we're the staff and we get every decision. But we got the positions for a reason, and we continue to do what we THINK is right. I'm sorry you don't agree. The majority has always seemed pretty satisfied though.

 

So, basically, all that needs to be done, is even though you guys are mods and officials and whatever shit. You don't have the right to make all the decisions by yourself. Talk to people, the actual URPGers, find out what they think about the topic and THEN talk about what you're going to do about it in the mod boards. Aren't most of the current mods/officials not very active anyway? So, get the opinions of those who are actually on everyday...

sry if i was inflammatory in this post

 

My point with the hypothetical situation was that, had that been the case, both possibilities of continuing with and backtracking on the expansion would've been detrimental. All it would then take is for another forum to have a look, see the expansion announcement and think "Huh, I wonder why that didn't go ahead", contact TPW and have our reputation tarnished. While I admit, yes, that would not have happened, since the majority agrees with the expansion, it wasn't concrete that that's what would've happened at the time, and so it was risky.

We can read. If you, after discussing among the staff, come to the opinion you think TPW is suitable, then you posted saying "Ok, we're thinking of expanding with TPW. Don't go bombarding them, yet, since nothing's set in stone", I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have the entire URPG spamming the other forum as some people are making out would happen.

Nice job dismissing hypothetical arguments, and then putting across a hypothetical situation and what my reaction would have been. Just because you don't say 'hypothetical', doesn't make it not hypothetical. I would have the exact same opinion, because, y'know, one of my points is the whole "too late to backtrack" thing.

And LS just summed up pretty much my entire side in one paragraph.

Also, this is from a conversation with someone. Just something to stew on. (These are my personal feelings, not hard fact or anything. Please don't go saying "You said this and are making us out to be bad people" - this is just what the situation SEEMS to be to me)

 

We asked you guys. Here is proof.

I'm starting to wonder if this has a point any more. Let's put it out there openly: you guys seem to think that the Staff is too secretive, and the 95% disagree. What would you like us to do to try and fix this supposed problem? What do you think is the perfect outcome from this?

 

1) That was in JULY! It's been too long without talk about it. As soon as you found a forum that you liked to have settled in, a new thread should have been made.

2) That wasn't anything specific. There's a difference about expanding in general, and expanding to a specific forum.

3) There's nothing you can do to "fix" the problem anymore. Just next time a topic that could affect the entire URPG comes up, bring it up to those that matter, not the 70% of officials and mods that don't battle or barely sign on.

 

Perfect outcome? Since no matter the outcome there is going to be at least one person who is going to bitch saying a notification on what the staff is doing on trivial matters is useless while another person will say that it's too vague no matter what, so no-one is going to be happy regardless.

I hardly see how a "possible" expansion was needed to be known in advance, after all it was not like the transfer was complete for months and no one was informed of it. This has literally turned literally to a mountain from a molehill, all because a member was handed leaked info and both the leaker and mouthpiece handled it in horrible fashion, even after being warned.

This has been going on in...what, three threads not counting this one? Just let things go back to normal, the boards were fine before and they'll be fine after.

Bitch/agree/comment whatever, done both lurking and following this debate.

 

1) Doesn't matter, we still asked you, and took your opinions into consideration when deciding whether or not to expand.

2) Doesn't matter that it wasn't specific. I see no reason why we should have to say "we're approaching PokeMaxForum", "they've agreed to have us there", "we're almost done moving all the threads over", "I stopped to take a crap while updating the Refpedia". From what I can see, the only reason you and PichuBoy want continual updates from the Staff is your own curiosity.

3) Well, if there's nothing we can do to make you or PichuBoy happy with the situation, this thread might as well be closed because it's pointless bitching. I'm trying to ask what you guys would like the Staff to do so you don't feel the way you do currently, but if you're always gunna feel this way there is literally no point in me trying.

 

Sounding pretty salty my friend.

1) Asking us before anything serious has been made is DIFFERENT. Why do you not understand that?

2) I don't want to know everytime you drop a fat log, that's just too much, but saying, "Hey guys, TPW is cool with us moving, discuss" is apparently too much for you guys.

3) You're the only one that sounds like they're bitching. :s

Also, do you lock every thread that you fail to settle?

Shutting down peoples opinions again....

 

HNGG.

I suggest the Report thread - you shoot it down because "it isn't necessary" (nothing ever has to be necessary to merit a change)
I suggest that this be handled differently in the future - you shoot it down because I'm "the one person that is displeased".
I suggest the URPG staff just be more open in general - you try to retcon saying "Oh, we always were", when considering a thread made OVER A YEAR AGO brought up exactly the same issues, I think it's obvious something is not being rectified here.

The point of this forum is to discuss. We are discussing. If you close this thread, you will literally not hear the last of me until it is reopened.

 

1. To further expand on LS first point, half of the people that posted in that thread aren't even as active anymore.
2. Nothing to explain, like literally, common sense. @ LS 2nd pt.
3. Quoting LS for truth. By default also making me agree with MK. @ LS 3rd point

4. My own point and question:
Do these two statements not seem contradictory? I think so.

And as far as I know, the leaks barely got out last week.
So which of these two/three officials do we believe?

Cuz I find it hard to believe that hardly anything gets done in the boards, yet enough has gotten leaked to cause some sort of disruption.

 

Do you guys not remember back in January when Pidge told everyone in an FFA chat (about 15-20 people) that we were possibly expanding? I sure do. Several people started buzzing about it and it was mostly positive. A couple of people made accounts, and asked Pidge about it in the chat, where he answered some questions.That actually sounds a LOT like what Haze was doing. Point being, people have known that this was on the horizon for quite a while.

 

I'm sorry, what exactly are you accusing everyone of here? If they agree with us, then they're mindless sheeple? Only people who disagree are the ones that know what they're talking about and can have an informed opinion? That's incredibly hypocritical if you're accusing us of thinking we're always right.

No, I don't think they are contradictory, because I actually know what's in the staff boards. Generally, there isn't much going on. Occassionally there is. It's what the board is for. You're taking an example from the past week when we WERE trying to make ome improvements, and using it as a sample for its usual activity.

 

No, I'm just saying that a lot of people agree with mods because of the fact that they are a "higher" authority, so they will always defend mods even though they have no idea what is going on.

 

Honestly, I'm done with this. It's pointless discussion and accusations. If someone knows of a way I can help out the situation, please PM/IM/VM me and I'll do my best to help you. Otherwise, I'm out. Good luck, Monbrey.

/follows Akinai out

 

The reason mods get defended isn't because they're a mod. It's because the members think the mod made the right call the last however many times, so they'll probably make the right call this time. It's why people get to be mods in the first place. So yeah, the staff and the mods in particular are a higher authority. I'm sure one of them can ban you for a little while to prove it if you'd really like.