Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

Hey guys.

As you've probably seen, the Eighth Gym Tourney has come to a close (about two weeks over-draft, but when was the last time a tournament ever finished on time anyway). This thread is to get your opinions on what went down in this tournament - what you liked, what you didn't, and etc. Please don't say things like "oh I got matched up against Ash, unfair battle" because that can't be helped. We all draw the short stick sometimes. Below is the method that I use to determine type-neutral rounds, just in case anyone want to examine me for bias:

First step, mark down the type of every gym leader attending, noting multiple type entrants like so:

Poison
Water x3
Fire x2
Electric
Normal

Second step, order them using random dice rolls.

Electric
Fire x2
Water x3
Poison
Normal

Third step, pick the type with the most recurring leaders closest to the top and match them with the first type they are neutral with. So, in this situation, Water is selected and the first type it is neutral with is also Water. The list now looks like:

Electric
Fire x2
Water
Poison
Normal

Water v Water

The next type picked would be Fire and Electric would be selected to vs it. This repeats until there are no more types. It's not perfect but it's pretty good, and I only have to juggle a couple battles this entire tourney. Once the matchups are determined, I roll who actually fights who. This was witnessed by a few people for the first and second rounds, I don't remember who though.

Anyway, the other big concern I've had a few people come to me about is the inclusion of the Orange Island gyms. Most of these gyms do not have monotype teams, which gives them an arguable advantage. There was a huge shitstorm about this last year, so this year I decided to do the tourney first and then ask what people thought. Here are a couple of reasons against OI gyms that I've heard:

- OI gyms have a noticeably increased win-rate in the Gym Tourneys.

- All the OI gym leaders have normal Gyms to battle with anyway.

- It's categorically unfair to have multitype teams running around in what is 95% a monotype tourney.

Here are my opinions on the matter:

- Personally, I believe the increased win-rate is because the OI Leaders are all really good battlers. Even if we locked out OI gyms, I'd still expect to see TED and WTP and FD do really well.

- These Gym Leaders hold the Gyms and battle with them, so it's unfair to exclude them just by the way their gym mechanics work.

- Multitype teams might have a slight edge, but I believe no more so than the Flying or Water or Dragon gyms that are packed full of really powerful stuff.

- Having multitype teams in the tourney roster makes it a lot easier for me to organise type-neutral rounds as they act like wildcards. For example, without multitype teams the first round is always guaranteed to have a Steel v Steel match.

Here are some possible solutions to this potential problem that have been suggested to me:

1) Suck it up, guys.

2) Force OI Leaders to battle with their regular gyms if they have them.

3) Ban OI Gyms outright.

4) Limit the OI lineup to 12 Pokemon like everyone else.

Personally, I prefer number 4, because while I don't believe OI lineups are a huge problem (hell, I nearly took down TED) I don't think they should have a larger pool of Pokemon than anyone else.

Now, after that massive wall of text, what do all of you guys think?

-Chainy

 

I never ended up battling TED because I failed to show for our scheduled battle, but i do have input for OI/multitype gyms.

I feel OI should be broken up, for more reasons than just the gym tourney. They were originally created (as far as I know) so that there were more gyms back when Gen 1 was a thing. Now that we have Gyms through five and soon to be six generations, OI gyms are nothing more than a gimmick, and a bad joke to more than some people. As for the gym tourney, they're all (except Mikan) gyms that have access to a variety of types, and there's no getting around the fact that they offer an unfair advantage, and also that they kind of crap on the idea of the gym tourney where single-type teams battle each other. I don't feel like too many people would disagree with killing OI off, and that speaks volumes.

As for Striaton, I would like to see it as a gym where people apply with one of three types: Grass, Fire, or Water. Each of the three Striaton Gym Leaders only have one type, there's just three of them. Since it's impractical to have three Gym Leaders for one Gym in URPG, have one Gym Leader with their pick of any one of those three types. Problem solved.

Feels kind of like I went beyond gym tourney context, but I like my ideas so what does everyone else think?

 

I feel Orange Islands should sign up with a 6 Mon Team from their line-up at the beginning. Similarly, I think they should use their mono-Gym first.

 

I'm not too fussed with OI gyms, but I kinda agree with Nitro in that they've become a bit of a gimmick - mainly because we had to allow owning multiple gyms just to get them filled. I think their battle rules are interesting enough to keep around, but I do think they should sign up with a lineup of 12 like everybody else when entering in tournaments like this. I think the win rate is more because the leaders are great battlers, not because they have a varied line up. After all, the rest of us regular gym leaders fight other people for badges when they use multiple types all the time, so what's the difference?

That being said, to keep the spirit of all-out gym battles against each other, I think the first round should also be 6v6, like the rest. This takes more time than a 4v4, but can you really tell who's the better battler when you only select 1/3 of your lineup? (especially when paired with a multitype). I think a 4v4 makes it more of a 'you need to predict/guess the right mons' rather than a 'you need to battle well' sort of thing. The whole battle can hinge on just one mon in 4v4, whereas you have a little more wiggle room in 6v6.

I think the way you determine who fights who is fair, since it plays down type advantages. You could make OI leaders sign-up with their normal gym first - but then there are going to be more horrible match-ups, like you said, Steel Vs. Steel. I think they should just pick their 12 (and some of them only have 12 anyway) and call it good.

 

Uh the tournament was perfectly balanced as it was. Try playing better instead of blaming 'unfairness'.

 

As much as I can see the benefit of preventing type matchups, in a sense it also rigs the battles, limiting who you could potentially have to fight.

An electric gym would potentially never come up against a highly skilled battler like Ash K who could (I'm not saying definitely) win anyway, and might instead only have to fight "easier" opponents without any type advantage. While type-wise the match-ups are fairer, it's still debatable skill-wise.

As for OI gyms, Ive never seen the problem with allowing them their own varied line-ups. It's much more difficult for them to take advantage of weather conditions and more than likely only have one Pokemon that acts as a valid counter to your type. For example, if I manage to take down a Starmie or something, the rest of their line-up is a lot less likely to cause me problems, instead of also having to fight a Kingdra and a whole bunch of other waters.

 

You could say this tournament was balanced in that the better battler came out the winner most/all of the time. But still, multitype gyms are undoubtedly an avantage. If you can fix it, why wouldn't you?

 

Explain how they have an advantage. I don't see it at all and never have. How could a monotype tournament where people can only represent certain types possibly be unbalanced, especially with a few multitypes introduced to mix things up? Surely if something was flawed someone would have said something about it before and listened?

 

The multitype gyms have the advantage because they have access to a wider typing of moves. That's flexibility monotype gyms don't have as ready access to, and flexibility in what you are able to choose from for your battle lineup is great long-term through multiple tournament rounds with different opponents. As for individual battles, you can see the flexibility in having a wider variety of options to turn to when you want/need to switch out.

Not just that, but monotype gyms, being limited to one type, have to pick Pokemon from exclusively that type, meaning they have to reach deeper to fill out their roster. Multitype gyms have lineups spread out over different types, meaning they can and usually will pick out a top-tier Pokemon from each type. A roster made up of top-tier Pokemon of multiple types will be much stronger in general than one that is limited to the top-tier Pokemon of one type, and then some random niche Pokes from the rest of the type.

As for no one having brought it up earlier, well, I don't really worry about the past. What happened or didn't ended up that way, and we're having this discussion now because it didn't happen before. We're having this discussion so that we can explore this.

 

The only thing I really had a problem with was how neutral-matchups were rolled in every round. I can just about understand it for the first round, but from then on, it should be a luck of the draw. People have won in "disadvantaged" matchups before.

 

I also agree about the type match-up thing. If you have to face a type you're at a disadvantage against, it means you'll need to think some more in the battle, and that could make it more fun. A water-gym can beat a grass-gym, a flying-gym can beat an electric-gym, ect. And if we had actually done our battle, you with fighting could have beaten my flying for all you know.

 

I wouldn't say that OI have that great an advantage against a monotype, but I look at it like this. When you challenge a gym, do you only use one type of Pokemon? When people battle gyms they draw across all the types to win, not just one type. That is my reasoning behind going away with OI.​

 

Pidge is righto about multitype gyms not having an advantage.

All the OI multitype teams are designed to battle OTHER multitype teams, not any one type. For instance, I don't know many gyms I would challenge using only mons from my Navel lineup. When you challenge a monotype gym you use mons that are gonna have an advantage over that type, and not all the multitype gyms have a check for each type. I thought they were kinda OP for gym tourney for awhile too, until I became leader of one. Also type is just KINDA factored into it 90% of the time. Like, the best battler is p. much always gonna win, regardless of type. Remember when Kai beat my Water gym with Cinnabar?

To add to this, I give a scenario. If I'm battling an Electric gym for example in a 4v4 or w/ever, I have to pick the 4 best mons to use against Electric. I only have one mon with a straight up type advantage, and only like 2 others that would be considered good vs Electric. After that I'm scrounging to find stuff to use, and end up just picking the least retarded option. Same goes for Water/Flying/Ground etc. The only types that multitype would have an obvious advantage over would be like Grass and the other weaker types that everyone beats most of the time anyway.

 

I don't really care, I liked the Tourney. The Rock type is pretty much screwed either way. GO PEWTER!

 

How does having a wider typing of moves help? Machamp can own everything with Dynamicpunch and Payback. Serperior can own everything with Leaf Storm. I only need 1-3 moves with most of my Pokemon. I think actually having more type of moves would be a disadvantage because what about things like Sleep Talk? Also you can get caught up and confused try to use some fancy move, when in fact all you needed to do was spam your STAB move.

Also, there's no such thing as top-tier Pokemon. Drapion can beat Blaziken just by using Earthquake (again, you only need 1-2 moves). Klinklang can beat Starmie with Shift Gear and Wild Charge.

If you wanted to explore, I think you should have been a Pokemon paleontologist, instead of a Pokemon forum poster.

 

A wider typing of moves help because you have more different moves that may be the right thing to use in different situations, where spamming your STAB move isn't as helpful. Say someone switches in Skarm on your Dynamicpunch and Payback Machamp. Machamp is screwed and will have to switch out, unless it has the benefit of a wider typing of moves that at the least expands to Fire Punch. As for getting lost with fancy moves, that's on the battler not being good enough to recognize what the right thing to do was. A competent battler will know what they're doing, and if they have extra moves to pick from, then that can only make things easier.

Also, top-tier Pokemon exist. You acknowledged that by listing Drapion in the context of a lower-tier Pokemon and Blaziken as a top-tier one. Obviously, those top-tier Pokemon have counters. But that doesn't mean that, in most other situations, Blaziken or Starmie won't be more helpful than Drapion and Klingklang. Compare a lineup with Blaziken, Starmie, Salamence, Gengar, Alakazam, and Jolteon to a lineup of Gengar, Venusaur, Drapion, Crobat, Tentacruel, and Nidoking. On base stats and variety of movepool alone, those top-tier Pokemon easily trump the Poison-types (which can be considered to be some of the better Pokemon, in general at least, of their type). That's an advantage Poison-types, or no single-type gym, can come close to, because they will always be limited to, at best, the "top" four/six Pokemon of their type in regards to base stats/movepool.

Obviously, a good user with a bad team will beat a bad user with a good team, but between two equal users where one has a good team and a bad team, the better team usually wins. Multitype TED vs Flying-type Pidge is different from Ground-type TED and Flying-type Pidge.

 

Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch do the same amount of damage to Skarmory. Once again, showing you only need a few moves. If Skarmory hits itself once or more, it's done, since Roost won't help. Also from my experience, most players are not "competent".

I acknowledged those Pokemon because I knew what you mean by top-tier Pokemon, even though I don't recognize them as such. For example, an atheist may understand what an ancient Greek means by Zeus and Apollo, even though he believes them to not be real. Also those two lineups seem pretty balanced. I would gladly take either side in a battle. You mention a variety in terms of movepool, but have yet to prove how that gives an advantage. The same goes for base stats. Also, I feel like all Pokemon have a pretty large movepool anyway.

But where will we ever have a scenario where there is a good team against a bad team? What is a bad team? I really don't see how anyone can have a bad team in a tournament compared to someone else, unless it was Flying vs Grass maybe, but not in the case of one type versus many. You did your Poison versus multi example, and it was not very good. Nidoking for Jolteon and Blaziken. Drapion for Gengar and Alakazam. Venusaur for Jolteon and Starmie. Tentacruel for Blaziken and Salamence. Crobat for Blaziken, Starmie, Gengar, and Alakazam (Choice Band Brave Bat hurts!, although Crobat may have to sacrifice itself, rest of the team can finish off). Gengar (Choice Scarf is probably a good idea in this matchup) for Salamence, Gengar, and Starmie. Of course it won't be an easy game for team poison, but neither will it be for team multi. This implies balance.

 

Okay, bad example, I didn't calc. But, I feel like the point I was trying to make can still be proven with a different example. Let's take Machamp versus Nidoking. DynamicPunch and Payback don't work, you need the extra coverage of either Earthquake or Ice Punch to get a move that deals close to/at least 50% damage to it. Against something like Slowbro or Slowking, you need ThunderPunch, since Payback doesn't do much either. And even then, their Psychic takes you out in two turns barring some luck with paralysis.

My point is, a wider movepool gives you more options in different situations. Situations where those options are more helpful do exist, which is often the reason you bother buying EMs for Pokemon. Base stats, well I thought that would be self-explanatory, but stuff like having more bulk, more Speed, more attack power, that all comes in handy and can be the difference between 2HKOing and getting 2HKO'd in different situations. And yes, all Pokemon have a wide movepool, but I'm talking about wide movepools in the context of stuff that would be regularly useful and offer extra flexibility in battle. Dragonite has coverage over all sorts of things between Dragon Claw/Outrage, Hurricane, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, ThunderBolt, etc., then also gets the flexbility of Roost, Thunder Wave, Sub/Protect (which most everything gets, but is still a handy extra move to have), Heal Bell, and ExtremeSpeed.

And yes, good team vs. bad team exists. Like the Machamp example, I didn't really think Poison through multi out. But, that's only an example. I don't want to do something too long-winded and break something specific - that's a lot of effort and more time than I have to spare, and even then, I'd only be putting that time and effort into something specific rather than an in general kind of thing. However, my point is that having more different types to choose from means when you're picking one of each type, you are available to pick one of the (in general) best Pokemon of that type. A multitype gym only needs, say, Blaziken, while a Fire-specific gym may have Blaziken, but also has to drag out some other Fire-types that aren't as good as Blaziken are. Not all Pokemon are created equal, and Blaziken is one of the better ones out there. A multitype gym that could have the Blaziken of each type will always be more readily equipped to handle a lineup limited to the a), b), c) and d) of just one type because when the multitype gym is picking his four/six mons to use, he is working with the momentum where he can pick different types to counter specific threats he expects his opponent to pick to use against his most prominent threat. (poor wording; think TED picking Weavile to counter the Gliscor Chris would use to counter TED's Blaziken in Kumquat v. Fuchsia)

 

I guess this is what I meant when most players aren't competent. You don't need a calculator to see Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch would deal the same (100*1.5=75*2). But you only need those two moves for I'd say about 90% of situations. Maybe you need two or three more to cover 95%. Also Slowbro does not help your argument. You don't need any extra moves to handle a properly played Slowbro, because none will work, unless there's a series of unlikely dice rolls.

Do you not want to present an example or are you not able to create one because such a case does not exist? What Pokemon does not have a wide movepool in the first place? What gym is full of these supposed Pokemon that don't have expansive movepools? Just stats don't tell you anything. Slaking, Hydreigon, and Magmortar have a high BST, yet they aren't used as much. Alakazam doesn't have a great total but it seems to be used a lot. There's no such thing as a Blaziken of each type; Blaziken is a category of its own. Also, Weavile does not counter Gliscor, because Weavile can't safely switch in without risking losing a considerable amount of health by Gliscor. It can however check Gliscor (meaning it can handle it almost for sure if it gets a free switch in after a KO). Similarly, Chris can check Weavile with Toxicroak.

 

Did you bother to read what I said, or are you just here to fuck around? I didn't think we were here to talk about whether or not I'm a competent battler, really.

"What Pokemon does not have a wide movepool in the first place?"

Let's compare Dragonite and Pidgeot. Pidgeot's movepool is, to sum it up quickly, is primarily limited to mainly Flying-type attacks, some utility TMs (a lot of which many other Pokemon have access to, like Sub/Toxic/Rain Dance, with the notable addition of U-Turn for scouting), and some BM/MTs that offer minimal coverage with Dark/Ghost/Fire-type moves with BP generally in the 40s-60s, with the main exception of Brave Bird and Heat Wave. It also has Roost and Refresh for healing and curing its own status, and Agility for boosting its Speed.

Dragonite, meanwhile, has a much wider movepool (also in # of moves, but here I'm just talking about in offered flexibility in battle, which may be a function of # of moves, but maybe not - not relevant atm). DNite gets Roost, same as Pidgeot, but also gets access to much more in terms of attacks through Dragon Claw/Outrage, Ice Beam, Flamer, ThunderBolt, Superpower/Brick Break, Surf, and ExtremeSpeed for priority. Other highlights include Heal Bell (superior to Refresh, definitely), both Dragon Dance and Agility, and Thunder Wave for status.

Basically, Dragonite's movepool is noticeably stronger than Pidgeot's through its expanded coverage + stronger moves, Dragon Dance, Heal Bell compared to Refresh, and Thunder Wave for the benefit of being able to paralyze opponents. Compared to Dragonite, Pidgeot's movepool is more suited for a niche role if anything at all.

As for stats, I never said anything about BST. BST is a made-up stat to track totals, but I'm sure you know that totals isn't ever the only way to look at things. What's important is how those are spread out to each stat where it's important for that Pokemon to have good stats (otherwise they wouldn't be good stats because high stats doesn't necessarily = good stats), and that in conjunction with other factors (movepool, typing, ability) creates good, great, and greatest among Pokemon. Not saying that we can ever rank Pokemon from 1-100 or whatever fairly because different mons have different purposes, but some Pokemon simply have an easier time carrying a team to a win than others, and some are simply meant to take a role on the side.

There not being a Blaziken of each type is a technicality. What I meant was the most elite Pokemon of each type (and obviously, some of those are debatable and I honestly hate the idea of there being a concrete #1, but I'm sure you get the idea). TED is free to take a Pokemon of each type, and he is free to take a Pokemon that can, at the least, be within the top 3/5/etc by a theoretical consensus vote. Meanwhile, a single-type leader can, at best, have a team that is top 12 within the consensus, and they would probably sacrifice a redundant Pokemon for a niche mon that serves a better purpose but has, say, even more counters/checks or some other downside. TED's team of top 3 mons of each type versus somebody else's team of top 12/15 mons. I'm sure you can see the disparity there. (I probably hate the idea of talking in top 10/12/15/etc somewhere close to as much as I think you do, but I'm just trying to get the point across)