The URPG Art Forum

You could make artists show work in progress screen caps maybe? Then you wouldn't have to worry so much about taking pics from the net and such. You could do it with almost any medium. And they wouldn't necessarily have to be posted with the artwork, but they would need to be linked to. Sort of like how Monbrey did those shots of his papercraft as he completed it.

Edit: And in the Park, extra characters actually give you a better capture rate, so excess does help there. I'm not really sure it can be applied here though, unless you want to allow artists to keep the extra points (like a cash in system in general?). It would be like buying things with money.

 

I'm going to pretend I've been here all along.

Kolour for Kai.

I wasn't really too fond of the point system at first either, but after reading over some of Kai's and Emma's posts, I'm much more open to it now. I have fuzzily warm smiley feelings about where this is heading and I feel like it could work. I think having to purchase 'mon by the points you earned might be a bit unnecessary. The points could be tracked in the thread that the capture would be taking place in and the judge would just keep note of it. In a way, we kind of use points in our story method, we just don't openly say HI THERE THIS STORY IS X POINTS. We just keep it in the back of our minds until we decide whether or not it's a capture based on the story.

Something we could do to help prevent plagiarism and also possibly help with scoring is originality(which I think I'm pretty sure was mentioned before in some fashion o-o. Like, we cringe at the, trainer wakes up. trainer walks outside. trainer BAM POKEMON BATTLE YAY, stories. So naturally, standard pictures of pokemon, i dunno. flying. or eating grass. Whatever it is pokemon do. Standard art pieces like that wouldn't get scored as high, no matter how pretty or well done it is, just simply because it isn't original. If we get like five people coming in wanting a Charizard, and all their pieces look the same. Like really similar. That'd just be such a buzzkill. I feel like there'd have to be more do it. Art is like a visual story, right? There's a meaning behind art pieces, so why shouldn't there be one behind these? The artist would have to make that meaning come out, and to do that, they'd have to have a meaning to it besides just the, "oh i want this pokemon." The desired pokemon doesn't have to be the biggest thing, or necessarily the main focal point, just as long as it's something more original than a Charizard flying, or a Venusaur existing, or whatever example tickles your fancy. I'm pretty sure there's a process in writing stories that takes a nice chunk of time before the actual writing begins. The same would apply for art.

I think I'm going to let this sit as it is to let people look over these thoughts of mine before I actively join this here pool party. :ksmile:

the last two pages was a lot to take in for posting for the first time. :dead:

 

This is kinda what I meant when I said I didn't approve of any sort of picture earning points. I'm totally okay with a Pokemon not being the main feature in a piece, however I feel like it should be featured somewhere.

For a somewhat obscure example, some random trainer doing something non-Pokemon related at home, his bedroom or something, but there's a little statue of a Charizard up on a shelf. Provided the piece is of a decent quality, I'd still count it.

 

Yeahyeah, that sounds plausible. Even though you just randomly pulled that out of your brain, it still has at least an idea of having a meaning behind it, albeit a simple one.

Not that we need anything overly complex or anything. ^_~

 

This is a complete summary of everything we need to get the Art Forum running. However a lot of the technical details are still undecided. This pretty much covers them all. If anyone has an suggestions or objections to the system below, let us know, otherwise expect to see the Art Forum officially opening soon ^.^

Points/Capturing:
Everyone seems pretty happy with the system Kai and Harry figured out.

• Easiest > 25 points
• Simple > 50 points
• Medium > 75 points
• Hard > 100 points
• Complex > 150 points
• Demanding > 200 points
• Merciless > 300 points
• Stupefying > 500 points

However we've decided that each level will have additional criteria though, such as the minimum point-per-picture requirements Emma and I discussed. Currently we're looking at the following:

• Easiest > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Simple > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Medium > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 30.
• Hard > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Complex > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Demanding > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Merciless > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Stupefying > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 60.

So lets look at capturing a Merciless Pokemon, Alakazam, which requires 300 points. To meet the minimum requirements, I have a drawing, a painting, and a banner, all featuring Alakazam, and I got 50 points for each of them. I'm at 150/300. The remaining pieces do not have to feature Alakazam at all, but obviously should still be Pokemon related.

Art Styles:
There was some debate over graphic/computer based art. A large number of people wanted it to be included, which makes sense. At the moment, we aren't planning on having distinctly separate categories, provided the graders understand the inherent differences between the two styles. If we have enough people willing to be art graders it shouldn't be much of a problem, as some will simply be better suited to grading specific art styles.

Grading:
Emma posted a "demo" grade of her own drawings above, which while perfect for drawn art wouldn't really suit something I made like the models. The discussion here is if graders should have to follow specific critera, or if they should simply explain the critera they used themselves when judging it and why it effected the overall score. So for something like my own model, I might list something like build quality compared to one of the other ones I did, bad folds, doesn't stand properly, stuff like that. As long as the grader can explain why the score was given in a way that helps future improvement in the person's art, much like story grades, it should be fine.

Multiple Captures:
If a piece of art features more than one Pokemon, where do the points go? I can really only think of a few options.

Say I get 80/100 for a picture depicting Charizard and Blastoise

• Points are split between the two. I'm now 40/200 for each.
• Points go towards a total score for both. I'm now 80/400.
• Artist's choice - I can choose to give the 80 points and the +1 feature count to either Charizard or Blastoise.
• Artist's choice 2 - I can choose to either split the points or put them all towards a single capture. If I choose Charizard, I lose the ability to claim that picture as a required feature piece for Blastoise.

Currently we're considering the second option. That then poses the problem of how the requirements will be met. For two Demanding Pokemon, the options would be either to require a total of four features in total, or two features for each. This would be nearly the same, except that for a piece featuring both, you could either be 1/4 features for the total, or 1/2 for both Charizard and Blastoise (effectively 2/4).

Excess Points:
Basically, what to do if you go over your required points. We're mostly leaning towards them counting for nothing, much like extra story characters, or having them worth TM's. However if the second option is chosen, once you go over you cannot continue drawing to get free TM's. This means if you're on 205/200, too bad. You don't have enough to claim. If you're on 195/200 and draw a 100 point piece, you'll have 95 points worth to claim on TM's for your efforts, which will use some form of points-to-cash exchange rate.

Anti-Plagiarism/Proof of Work:
Obviously there's always the honour code. For something drawn/painted/scanned/photographed this isn't too hard, we just want you to sign it somewhere. In the example of my models I'd probably just put a piece of paper next to it with my username so it could be seen in the photo. For computer art, a Google search will quickly find any stock images you try and pass off as your own. I realise stock images are required in making your own piece, and this is fine. However minimal or no editing will get you 0 points.

So yeah, we want to hear your feedback on this. If you have any better suggestions or major objections let either Kai-Mei or myself know.

 

Just one thing I have to say. I'm sure people who might not be the best of artist would get pretty discouraged over time as they constantly get very little for their art. I realise an Effort section probably would not work, but what about a Progress one. This would allow them to maybe get a little more points and boost their self-esteem if they knew people acknowledged they were improving, and obviously they'd want to come back more often and submit more art.

 

The problem with a progress bar, however, is that it wouldn't do squat for more experienced artists. In fact, it would likely hinder them, 'cause they would never really get those points/would get much fewer points than a less skilled artist might, simply because their last piece happened to be glorious.

However, on further consideration, it's prolly a good idea. Perhaps we could use it as one of those selectable options, and it would only be available of you 1) selected to have yourself graded on your "progress" (which almost everyone would, really... It's practically free points) and 2) it's your nth capture. Like, second. And we should have either an honor-based-unspoken/written law that prevents people from abusing this on purpose to get more points. If I wanted a Gastly and everyone knew I was a phenomenal artist (lolwut), but then I posted my first image for a Gastly and it was pure and utter crap that only got a 20, and then my next two pictures were phenomenal and both got 90's, allowing me to get a ton of extra TM's that I wouldn't have before... that's abuse, and it undermines the whole point. XD

I could see the above getting abused quickly though, so we'd need a ton of restrictions on who could get graded on progress and get points for it (and perhaps a max level difficulty one can use it on)... And how does one even grade progress in a quantitative fashion?

On an unrelated note, what does everyone think that the average art piece should get? Like, how harsh should our curators be to make it still challenging but not impossible? I was thinking 75 for the average piece, low 90's for the really good things (THERE IS NO PERFECT ART), and 10/15 for the trolls?

 

The "progress" marking criteria would probably have to be something unofficial too, otherwise it would suffer the abuse Kai mentioned. However I can't help but stand by the "If you're no good at art don't make art" thing I said before. I know it might seem harsh, but I don't think anyone would grant me a capture for a story that was terribly written and had no plot just because I tried really hard to write it, and it was marginally less shit than my last story.

I guess the grader would need to see some form of uhh... honesty in their efforts. If your first piece is a stick figure holding a Pokeball, you'll probably get a low mark. As a grader, I might mention adding a background and giving the stick figure a proper body. The next mark would probably depend on how well they followed the advice. If picture #2 hasn't really changed at all, except there's a poorly drawn Pokemon somehwere, then they aren't trying to improve. If picture #2 has a background of an plain orange sky/sunset over a plain green mountain in the distance and there's been an attempt at drawing a real person (distinct shirt, pants, legs etc), even a poorly drawn one, then I'd award some (maybe 5, 10) extra points for an honest attempt to follow the helpful advice I had given and improve themselves.

 

I think the whole points thing would make everything more complicated. The story section doesn't necessarily have that. They just have distinct categories. I think if we can make the grading system here kind of mirror the story section that it could work. Is there anyway we could incorporate this without a point system?

I also think, if we're using points, that extra points shouldn't go to anything. I foresee that getting really complicated as well. @[email protected]

 

Well the reason for having the points system is to make it so they add up to be for one Pokemon. Because even drawing one really really good thing for like, a Stupefying Pokemon, still seems like it'd be kind of hard to give away. Unless you can paint me the Sistine Chapel or something. Stories are different because stories can be not only of varying quality but of varying length. Even if you're an amazing artist, there's only so much you can draw or paint in one drawing/painting/whatever. If that makes any sense at all.

 

If there is no points system, we would need to grade like a story, which we simply cant. If I was an amazing artist, this would become the easiest way to get Pokemon. Draw a Porygon, Larvesta, and Scyther in one piece, and because its good they get all 3?
Character counts are clearly defined lines you have to cross for your story to be good enough to even be considered for certain Pokemon. The points act in the same way, otherwise it's impossible to declare with pieces are eligible for Porygons and Larvestas and which are the Magikarps.

 

Well, I guess the largely quiet response to my "Should we change our final decisions" post is a pretty positive thing. If anyone can propose a full system that doesn't use points I'm happy to hear it, but I don't see any solid way of ranking a piece of art in the same way we can rank a story based on its character count. Number of colours or size of the piece? I'll spam every possible RGB combination and have a Porygon riding a rainbow of 16,581,375 colours on a 10,000 x 10,000 pixel banner.

That's kinda why we added the extra criteria. It's not just the points, you also need to have demonstrated some minimum level of artistic talent to get different Pokemon ranks. X pieces featuring Pokemon that scored at least Y.

 

Well, we could always require more than one piece of a certain quality for the harder ranked mon. I just think with the points system, anyone could get any mon. Eventually, they will get enough points for a larvesta or a porygon even if their art skills hasn't improved. And there's the thing about tracking points and then lying about them. No, I personally can't think of any better system, but I just think a points system would be REALLY complicated. @___@

Does anyone else see this being really complicated? D; Cause if it's just me, I could be over thinking it. I do that sometimes.

 

We do require pieces of a certain quality for higher ranked mons...

 

Personally, I don't think the point system is that bad. It reminds me of the Library... except that no one used the Library... BUT IT WOULD'VE WORKED. HAD WE USED IT.

 

Hey, guys, back from vacation. Moo.

The main reason we implemented the point system was because we needed some sort of system to rank art in a thoughtful manner. Honestly, even the story section sort of has a point system (although it's hiiiiighly susceptible to tweaking and it's mostly subconscious; I don't think it's ever written down and it's kinda optional... I'mma stop shooting myself in the foot now), and the park has one. However, art just seems more subjective than writing is, biased as I am, and I'm fairly certain that people are going to want to see why their art is "good" or "bad". We have to have some sort of quantitative approach to this, since art is so difficult to properly critique, and the point system seems like the best way to approach it. Literally. All of our approaches thus far have been based slightly around the point system (ALL TWO OF THEM), and frankly, it's the best idea that we've got. We have failsafes in place, as Monbrey mentioned, to prevent people from spam spam spamming, but hopefully people won't try to abuse it. Then I shall be upset. :>

If anyone else has any other suggestions, however, I'm totally open to hearing them. I might not necessarily implement them, though, but... XD

 

Also to add: I wouldn't mind raising those minimum scores by 10 each... Stupefying for 60 seems like "Just over half good". 70 just feels better...

 

Alright, I suppose I can wrap my mind around it now. Though I agree with Monbrey about the stupefying level. And why don't easiest and simple have a point level?

 

They do, but its 25 points and 50 points. Theres multiple criteria, perhaps I should explain in full.

This means that for each level, a minimum score must be reached to claim the Pokemon. Of that score, a certain part must meet the second additional criteria. So for Charizard, a Demanding Pokemon.

• Demanding > 200 points
• Demanding > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.

I need to reach a total of 200 points. While doing this, at least two pieces of my art MUST feature Charizard, and these pieces MUST be scored at 50 or higher. This means that at least half the points going towards the Pokemon I am attempting to capture was at least mid-quality art that directly featured the attempted Pokemon. However I'm thinking of raising these slightly.

The reason the pieces for Easiest and Simple don't have a minimum quality is that the total points required is only 25 and 50 respectively, and I didn't feel a 'minimum quality' was required, only the featuring of the Pokemon. Personally, if someone struggles to draw 5 terrible Magikarps that only get 5 points each, I don't mind. They got a Magikarp. 100 5-point Porygon-Z's is a big deal though.

So, new proposal for capture requirements:

• Easiest > Total of 25 points, minumum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon.
• Simple > Total of 50 points, minumum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon.
• Medium > Total of 75 points, minimum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 40 or higher.
• Hard > Total of 100 points, minimum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 50 or higher.
• Complex > Total of 150 points, minimum two pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 50 or higher.
• Demanding > Total of 200 points, minimum two pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 60 or higher.
• Merciless > Total of 300 points, minimum three pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 60 or higher.
• Stupefying > Total of 500 points, minimum three pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 75 or higher.

 

Hey, guys... this is important. Hurray.

In light of future events (I LOVE THAT TERM, DAMMIT), Monbrey will be in charge of the fledging Art Forums. Like, the head art judge-man or something, seeing as all of the other people have gone inactive. Good luck, everyone, and do... arty stuff. Yeah. Thanks. ^.^