Ref Development and Forum Battles

Forum battles are the only way to represent urpg battling to forum lurkers but the forum battles section has been a graveyard for a while now and will only be visited by curious members if they seek it out specifically. For the likelihood of a lurker coming across a forum battle (and getting instantly acquainted with what urpg battling is all about) to increase then we have to increase the frequency of a forum battle appearing in these links.





and to do this we have to actually start doing forum battles lol.


But it's not as simple as just saying "we have to start doing forum battles" since I brought this up a while back when urpg activity was being examined and no one forum battled once but rather we have to give incentive to the battlers to stick it out, since lets be honest forum battles are a pain because they take so long.

And this is where the ref development bit comes in.

I propose we allow members who have passed the ref QUIZ be allowed to ref forum battles. This is perfect because;

- Some people don't have an issue doing a mock battle for no pay to help refs so why not do a long battle for some pay to help them?

- If someone does want a forum battle through choice a legit ref is less likely to devote a month+ of their time for a measly 2k, having a bunch of people who can do nothing but forum battles mean there is no apathy towards the battle.

- Some would be refs might feel hard done by if there is no forum battles for them to ref and some members might be bros and help them out by doing a forum battle for them to ref

- Existing refs can regularly check calculations made by the forum ref and alert them of mistakes (if not them then the battlers are most likely calc'ing along anyway).

- Ref tests seem hard to come by these days so maybe meeting some requirements in forum reffing could qualify as a test??

- theres probs more


Discuss

 

First off, I totally agree about forum battles. I believe we used to have exhibition matches and things of the like that took place on the forums. There are a number of ways we could increase interest in forum battling and exhibition matches, such as increased pay or maybe even rewards for the more intense battles.


As for allowing people who have passed the ref quiz to ref forum battles, I'm not sure it sits well with me. It sounds good in theory, but:
a) Is it really worth it? There aren't a whole lot of active members who have passed the quiz and not the test.
b) There are members who have passed the quiz and failed the test. This may not seem like a big deal, but in a forum battle a mistake could go unnoticed for a long time before it's caught.
c) Some people who passed the quiz did it a long time ago with a lot of mechanics changing since then.

As a compromise, I could definitely see giving some small pay for small forum battles that quiz passers could use as practice, but nothing major and really nothing over 3v3s with basic rules.

In any case, substituting forum battles for the ref test wouldn't work because it doesn't help with live battles that are expected to be reffed at a reasonable pace. I'm trying to ref test more, but I need a document that was lost on my old laptop as well as some extra free time.

tl;dr 100% agree about forum battles needing more attention, let's definitely work on some incentives! However, I don't support allowing quiz passers to ref anything major even if it's on the forums.

That being said, @people who would like to be tested I'm always open to schedule things through Visitor Message so let me know! I just need a document, and I'll be good to go! =]

 

I like this idea in theory, buuuuuut....

Pretty much anytime anybody talks about incentives for anything, it's "more pay", including things that really don't need incentives like FFAs.

Forum battles are kinda nostalgic to me since it's how I started URPG - the forum was really busy with the BMG rush. These days, you pretty much get referred directly to AIM in your starter approval. People rush you onto the messenger, rush you through 10 basic battles and tell you to buy a team of 4 so you can battle properly.

In part, this works. It gets people into URPG battling efficiently, but it strips any semblance of a canonical roleplay that ever existed. Forum battling my Charmander basics took time, and each battle was an individual battle that mattered, against other people who joined at the same time with their own basics. That intial sense of progression is gone. You get given a starter, a free Pokemon from the Pokemart, and those are pretty much insta-evolved in basics spam.

Unfortunately we don't have the incoming flow of members to facilitate that right now. I don't know what the answer to encouraging forum battles is, but I'd really like to see more creative initiatives than just handing out more money.

In regards to refs, see Swifty's post, my thoughts are the same.

 

I agree that forum battles could use more love, not just necessarily on BMGf, but on PWN and PXR too. I'm all for giving people a way to get more involved in the URPG. No issues there.

I also think that refs that passed the quiz should be able to ref forum battles. I don't really think failing the test should make a difference in this case because even if they failed the test, they probably know what they did wrong, and this would give them a way to practice more before they take the test again. I'm not gonna hate on sidealong reffing because I think it's a good idea, but I think it makes battles last longer if the ref is also checking the answers of the sidealong ref. That's not a bad thing since they're learning in real time, and mock battles aren't an awful idea either (other than that they get no pay). I just think it makes things more tedious for all parties involved when they have to wait for the unlicensed ref to do their thing. In terms of when the test was taken, I think making them take the new quiz first would be best. Mechanics have changed since gen 4 and 5, and even since gen 3, so we would need to see what exactly they do know. If they could pass it once though, they could probably pass it again if they have some sort of vague awareness of current mechanics.

I can see why there's the hesitation with giving out money for this; we practically give money for everything in URPG. Battles, FFAs, story competitions, etc. Money makes the world go 'round. Maybe some sort of tiered prize system for refs in training? Ref 5 battles, get a TM of 5k or less in the mart; ref 10 battles, get a daycare pass, things like that? They're equivalent to money, yeah, but they're also mildly relevant to the profession they're a part of. Battles are also a huge part of URPG anyways, and even if these things aren't really being used in battles, they can be used in park too, so it's sort of a win/win situation here. Alternatively, we could also offer a small monetary incentive. Regardless of the battle size, the winner of the battle gets $1000, and the loser gets $500; even in a 6v6, the battlers would earn no more than $1000 whereas if a real ref reffed it, they'd earn up to $3000, depending on the result of the battle. For the ref, their pay would be as normal, 500x (with x being the battle size), but for every two mistakes they make, they lose $500. This would be capped at 6 mistakes, so that the ref still gets at least $500 for their time. (These numbers are purely hypothetical, a head/senior ref can argue this and make them better if they want.) For example, Monbrey and Ash were battling in a 6v6. Seppe was their "ref." Ash wins and gets $1000. Monbrey loses and gets $500. Seppe refs, but he makes 4 mistakes. Instead of getting $3000 like he would if he were actually a ref, he'd get $750; that's an awful number, yeah, but there's the donation pool now if it really bothers anyone. The refs would have to link their battles, and a senior/head ref (and maybe a few others that the senior/head refs see are pretty decent refs themselves) would have to approve the battle and award the money/prize and also point out any mistakes. These battles would also be completely public so that it's easy for everyone to see what's happening and for us to catch mistakes.

I'd personally prefer the TMs/daycare passes/whatever else for these for the refs, because then they're not making lots of money before they actually have a license, and the battlers just get money solely because I don't think $1000/$500 is going to drastically hurt things and they'd have to win/lose a few of these to get a few TMs anyways; if there's any abuse regarding these for the practicing refs or the battlers, we can always lay down the law. Maybe capping it at X battles a week and X battles reffed total? That way the practicing refs aren't practicing for centuries and getting rewards for doing it, and the battlers aren't making loads of money off of this?

 

To be perfectly honest, the quiz is a joke. Like it's really easy. Passing it basically means you know how to look things up (and everything you need to look up is literally in the same thread as the quiz). I think the quiz is only even really there to make sure you understand the simple fact that in-depth mechanics exist, and to kind of force you to do some preparation before you take the test. I really don't think passing the quiz qualifies you enough to do serious reffing.

I have nothing against people who mock-ref or ref alongside battles; it's a good idea and good practice. But that's all it is. Practice. I don't think we need to pay people for practicing. People who have passed the quiz and not the test either haven't been tested yet, or have failed it. If you haven't been tested yet, you are assumedly trying to be tested (again, working on it) to become a real ref, so you're really just in a transitional stage. It feels like, with this system, we are basically enabling people to remain in this transitional stage without trying to become a full-fledged ref. "The test is too hard, I'm already getting paid, so why bother?"

 

And yet, people fail it time and time again. Mistakes in the scenarios are no different to the mistakes you would see in a forum battle.

If you ace the quiz first try, then I'd be confident in your ability to ref a forum battle. If you have to fix up the scenarios 5 times, then you'll probably need help with the forum battles.

Either way, the quiz is not a good indication of your ability to ref, only to prove knowledge of mechanics.

 

I was going to use myself as an example with the scenarios, but apparently I did well on them, idk. I missed a couple, but I was able to fix them, haha. (And the only one I did end up missing in the end was a silly mistake, so there's that.)

But anyways, we were talking on AIM, & I figure I should post this here so that everyone can see the idea and comment on it or whatever.

Basically, we want more forum battles. We want more refs. It's two separate issues, really, but we could resolve both in the same way. The issue doesn't really lie in the lack of ref testers because they're really just busy, and they have to live this lie that their real life is more important than URPG. The issue lies in people actually passing the test. The quiz is a bit of a joke if you know what you're doing, but Swifty's right in that all of the answers to it are in the refpedia. That said, there's really only 5 scenario questions on the quiz, which isn't bad, but it's not really the same as what you'd probably be doing in the test. (I can't say what you'd be doing in the test because I'm bound to secrecy, I don't remember my own test really other than when it happened and who did it, and every test is different.) Basically, what I'm saying is that there's not much actual practice before the test except for the 5 scenarios at the end of the quiz; the other 25 questions of the quiz are questions that you can find the answers to in refpedia. In order for you to get the additional practice yourself, which you may not want to do because once you pass the quiz, you're so eager to take the test already, you have to ref in your own battles to see if you get the same result as your ref or sidealong ref with a real ref or basically go out of your way to do it. I'm not saying the quiz is really awful, it's just not the best preparation for the actual test, if that makes sense.

That said, Smiles has the mentoring program for battling, story writing, park, art, and contests. Why not implement the same thing here, but for refs? (And possibly other professions as well, but those can be discussed later if the need arises.) The way I'm thinking of setting it up is more or less the same as the way Smiles has hers set up, but with some differences. Have a thread for this, of course, with all of the details. We could either have ref mentors claim mentees or just have mentees sign up with a list of things they struggle with; if it's the latter, they would have to link any battles they ref in the sign up thread for a senior ref or head ref (or if they decide to let selected refs with enough knowledge help as well), and they would have to look the battle over and note any mistakes, or lack thereof, and tell the mentee whether or not they can consider that task complete. (Basically for the second option that doesn't involve claiming a mentee, mentee signs up. Mentee receives list of goals based on what they want help with. Mentee refs battle. Mentee posts link to battle. Someone looks over it and tells mentee how they did and whether or not they completed that goal. Rinse and repeat till all goals are complete.) Since each ref has their own things that they struggle with, having customized goals for them based on their weaknesses would be the best; there can be some similarities between the lists, such as everyone having to ref a battle with helds on but only one person has to ref a battle involving accuracy and evasion rises and drops, or something like that. There's obviously a reason why they're failing the test over and over again, or there's a reason why there's a concept they struggle with. People do fail the quiz, yes; I failed it. The main issues are probably in the more practical things like the scenarios and actually reffing a battle instead of pressing CTRL+F and finding answers. It's easy to search answers, but it's not so easy to actually ref a battle. The ref mentoring program would give them the opportunity to improve on things they struggle with while also getting reffing experience. The prize would be the experience and the opportunity to actually hopefully pass the ref test; could offer something else, but it's not really necessary, tbh.

Now how does that mentoring program help with making forum battles happen? To make things easier for everyone, the battles for this would have to be forum battles. They can gather people on AIM/Skype, that's cool, but the actual battling has to be done on the forums. The battlers can get whatever pay they would normally get, but the ref would get no pay. I don't think public/private sends would matter because even in private sends, everything can be posted at the end of the battle for the other refs to see. The only restriction would be that they can't ref gym/E4/LD/other important battles since they're still learning.

Basically promotes forum battles so refs can practice and gives refs a system to encourage that practice. Two birds with one stone, maybe? :0

 

I think forum battle pay can be raised (or restored) to original levels. The real problem with forum battles is how slow they are, so I don't think anyone is really going to abuse the system. It simply takes too long to count as abuse.

Perhaps forum battles can be the ONLY time 1v1s will actually pay out normally (1k/0.5k).

 

This is good, I like this. I feel this, how can we add a semblance of canonical roleplay and sense of progression into the game?

I don't have anything super-insightful to add. However, I can no longer log into AIM because they've dis-integrated from Facebook, so now I can do lots of Forum Battles! (Because that's the only kind I can do! TT^TT ) Challenge me, and we'll get Junior Ref Seppe (That'll be the title of people who have passed their ref quiz in the last month, but not done their Test yet; "Junior Ref") to come in and ref it for us!

 

"I think forum battle pay can be raised (or restored) to original levels"

Are you referring specifically to 1v1s paying? Because currently forums battles pay exactly the same as AIM battles. What "original levels" are you referring to?

 

Yeah, I was referring specifically to 1v1 pay.

 

So I'm in a fun position for this. I've passed my ref quiz and have done mock battles and such and do plan on taking the ref test when time is more available (two more weeks!), but to be honest, I don't think I should get paid for mock reffing, 'cause I'm still technically learning how to ref. Yea, sure, maybe a forum 1vs1 could help incite more forum battles and if they want to pay for said forum battle (and the "junior" ref too) then cool, but I won't be lurking around asking people to do 1vs1 forum battles just so I can earn an extra 1k after a few weeks. However a fun 1vs1 or a 2vs2 double battle on a forum with some neat roleplay could be fun (and be attractive to people perusing the forums, I know I looked there and read some battles before joining).

Overall I don't think paying people who've passed the quiz should happen; maybe on a forum 1vs1, but that's for officials to decide 'cause that, imo, wouldn't take away the incentive to pursue the ref test and become a real ref.

 

Eh, I'm kind of against fully evolved 1v1s paying in any context, tbh. It's just too much of a fixed outcome. Either the person with the most EMs wins, or the person with the type advantage does. There's rarely any turning things around.

 

What about a Junior Ref Event?? where junior refs such as Seppe and Liam can ref forum battles "And showcase URPG's fabulous combat system!" and get paid for doing it.

[EDIT]
But not set the precedent and make it a permanent thing.

 

That seems super specific for an event.

 

It's only that specific because I don't know who else is waiting for a ref Test. But I know both of you are. Basically, I just want more refs. Just like I want more competent Rangers. just like I want more curators.

But you might be right. I haven't ever seen an experimental event outside of the Beginner Run park event, so I don't really know what sorts of things are supposed to go into them.

 

Like I said there are only a few active people even in that position, that kind of event would barely have any participation. In any case, I am against paying non-refs to ref in any context. We wouldn't have an event where anyone can suddenly curate or grade things. The same logic applies here. We have a test for a reason. If you wanna get paid for reffing, pass the test.

 

Yeah, but it's a good way of getting people into the game. The people who usually do forum battles are new members. What a few of us this back in the day was "go easy" on new members in 1v1s. That often means a lot of Tail Whip or less effective attacks.

The idea was never to win the battle, but to actually have a battle that will help new members feel at home.

 

I honestly don't see an issue with someone getting paid normally for doing something that will take over a month but it doesn't matter I guess.

This post was meant to highlight the need for more forum battles and I suggested the ref thing because that's the best incentive for increasing forum battles without increasing the pay that I could come up with. If we don't like the quizzers reffing forum battles lets start suggesting alternatives

 

No offense, but forum battles as they are currently just suck seem to have very little appeal, regardless of who's reffing them. I know y'all resort to them when an important battle can't be done through a messenger real-time because of scheduling conflicts, but they just seem so inconvenient and unappealing otherwise.

If the point of increasing the frequency of forum battles is to increase interest in URPG, why not take advantage of the few benefits forum battles have over messenger battles? In real-time battles, as Monbrey said, usually any sense of canonical roleplaying is stripped from the actual gameplay. It's an option, but most people just opt to send a move then see the stats.

Perhaps forum battles should put the roleplaying back in battling. Due to the ample amount of time between each turn, more effort can be spent ensuring high-quality posts. Maybe have it be greatly encouraged for the battlers and especially the ref to add flavor text and descriptive language in their forum battle sends?

I imagine it sort of like y'all's old Forum FFA's I read through, in which each post by the ref laid out a scene and had things happen, instead of just calling out moves. The ref could call out how the Charmander used Flamethrower on Squirtle, how it boiled the turtle inside its shell, how they all feasted on it afterwards.

I think it would definitely add appeal to forum battles (for battlers, refs, and potential spectators) and give them a reason, besides scheduling, to be carried out. I realize they're also done for new members who don't have access to a messenger, but, as I've looked through the forum battles a bit, I don't believe they're successfully keeping these messenger-less members about.

And honestly, I could totally see myself reffing a forum battle if I was engaged in some guided roleplay with the battlers. Right now, though, they only seem like a chore to keep up with.

Just my two cents.

tl;dr roleplay in the forum battles because they would then be more fun for everyone