Trainer's Court Complain Thread

I was totally kidding when I mentioned doing this before, but now I have a legit issue/suggestion that I feel could use some discussion.

I've been reading through these old threads, and this has been addressed multiple times in several different ways. But rather than bump a dead thread, I thought it would be better to start new and simplify the issue into the most singular and fixable one.

Clearly activity is down, and has been for quite some time - this isn't the issue, as it has happened over and over again in urpg's lifespan. The biggest problem is actually a fundamental one and it involves Art/Stories: they're overworked and underpaid. These sections are crucial; they're virtually the only way (barring RP's) to obtain Pokemon, and I think it is a huge put off to both new and old members to have to wait literally months to hear back on a submission. And likewise, for the 2 active Graders/Curators to spend hours judging so other people can enjoy the game, for virtually no compensation.

I am aware that Art is fairing much worse than Stories, and also that this comes off as super bias, but this is a pretty grim reality. I personally do not care if my stuff takes 4+ months to be graded, as it just sits in my stats anyways and I'll probably be inactive again after a short time. But for new members to come in and see the wait time to capture a Pokemon, why would they bother? And honestly, same for the active vets. What incentive is there to remain interested and invested, if the turnaround is such a long period of time.

There is simply not enough people with professions, and while I am aware that a wage increase won't solve all of urpg's problems, I think it could really help with this one. I have Curated some things myself, as I felt pretty guilty for adding a bigger workload to the already overburdened Curators, and $2-6k is simply not worth the time. I have also spent countless hours in the past Grading stories, and the $5-10k did not justify that effort either. Whoopee, I can afford half a TM.

When activity was booming, these pay scales were balanced and made sense, but that really isn't the case anymore. There needs to be incentive for people to apply for jobs. This honestly applies to refs and rangers as well.

When I submit a Curation, my Curator should benefit just as much as I do from it, if not more. I got to draw a picture, enjoy myself, and catch a pokemon. They had to sit and analyze it, then type out a review... for $3k.

Someone has to to sit and read the story, ref the battle, write the review - all for someone else to enjoy themselves. I think that really isn't fair to expect that from them. And it is not surprising at how dead the sections are.


Maybe someone has a better idea, but something's gotta give, man. Make people want to get a profession -> things get done. Things get done -> more people play. More people play -> the game becomes more enjoyable for everyone.

 

WOWIE YES I AGREE AND THIS THREAD NEEDS MORE DISCUSSION.

I can't say much about how curation works/what an accurate or efficient (read: easy to do/actually on time) pay scheme would look like for curators, but lots of work goes into these things for minimal pay. Even with my minimal involvement in art, Emma was able to write out a really nuanced and helpful critique with tons of things to keep in mind, and that's worth a lot more than the teensy wages people are getting. Wages should go up for Curators.

Obviously I'm impartial re: graders and have been for years, but we wouldn't mind some love ;D idk if I'm unbiased enough to give a proper assessment of the situation.

 

Damn old people think they can walk in here and complain about everything.

Curators I'm cool with a wage change.
Graders I don't really know.
Rangers I don't really know but didn't theirs get adjusted relatively recently? (compared to other sections)
Refs get paid well enough already for an easy job.

 

Curator wages were bumped as well as Ranger pay as of the last wages that were completed. However, as many staff had zero input for what that increase should actually be, I just adjusted slightly and then adjust it further when I actually do wages.

Generally I give curation bonuses to extra effort, but there hasn't been much above and beyond lately--nor has there been a need for it. It sort of connects to that old thing I grew into UPRG with in stories, that "a long grade doesn't necessarily mean more pay." Sometimes a user doesn't want a detailed curation because they aren't concerned so much with improving skill, and as I've said in past updates, there's no real reason for a curator to spend hours on that type of curation. Some of them are meant to be short and sweet and that's okay.

Many curations just recap what the artist did and then the curator gives a comment on whether they liked/disliked without much further elaboration or overall effect on the rest of the piece. This is equivalent to rehashing the plot in a story. While it's useful to give context and reference in the curation/grade, it's not something I'm going to pay for because that doesn't help the artist improve. If the curator goes further, sure, I'll reward that, as that's the point. But many of our curations have not been like that, and when they are, the wage is adjusted appropriately.

However, I am in agreement that wages for graders and curators is still a little low compared to the work they do and would like to see an overall bump. I would like input, as I've asked before, for what is an appropriate bump.

However#2, if the curation is not worth that higher value, just as if a Ranger post is not up to the upper bracket, I will not pay max as that encourages poorer quality work. I like leaving it up to the professional themselves as to what pay scale they should get--if they want to put more effort into it, then they will be rewarded, but if they just want a casual thing to get through backlog faster, that's fine too. I have the same philosophy for Ranger posts, and that's seemed to work so far.

I apologize for my long absence. Alas it seems life gets in the way at times. I will try to resolve this quickly.

 

Honestly I'd love to see a system where graders, curators, rangers, and chroniclers are paid on the same relative level as refs. As it is now, refs typically pull 3x or so the amount of wages per month that the other professions do, even with what can be assumed as the same number of hours put into the work.

I'm never quite sure what a modified payscale for graders should look like. This is partially due to the fact that I only ever use the mart like twice a year for gifting purposes and partially due to the fact that I know the system has been refined and nearly perfected by now to reflect compensation for good work (now I'm preaching to the choir!! Emma you are amazing tyty for being here<333). But I definitely think a payraise should be worked into the system soon.

SO this is a useless post for now but I just wanted to say I'm thinking deeply about this and want to be part of the solution soon.

 

Reviving, let's go.

Definitely agree that the Graders/Curators (not sure about Rangers/Chroniclers) should be paid more, to reflect the depth and quality of the work they put out. I second that the non-Referee professions should be able to consistently pull in just as much (if not way more) as refs can through pressing buttons. The estimate I've always used to decent success to tell if I had enough time to ref a battle is 2 hours for a 4v4 and 3 hours for a 6v6. That's a rate of roughly $1000/hr if it helps y'all figure numbers out in any way.

Also, I think that all professions should be encouraged, to the point that giving back to the community via one should be rewarded more than solely participating. Intrinsic motivators are great if you have them, but to be able to say "I can progress faster in URPG by helping out others play the game" would be very good, I think. I'd imagine that people would put more effort into trying to earn a profession and stay more active in it overall if this was the case.

 

*lurks about* *gives @Seppe a high five and tells him to get on League*

I have mixed feelings on this one. On one hand, increased wages for grading and curating would certainly be welcome. On the other hand, what are the odds that astronomically increasing my wages would make me become active again? I dunno--my level of activity waxes and wanes with my mood more than the amount of URPG money I could be earning.

On the topic of relative pay for graders/curators vs. refs, I can comment as someone who's done all three jobs. Reffing feels much, much easier but in many cases the money/time ratio is far lower for refs than the other professions. I guess I've never really timed myself while grading or curating, but if we use Seppe's $1k/hour scale, I'm pretty sure graders and curators earn a lot more than that. That being said (and it has been a while, so I may be misremembering), I recall being far more likely to ref a battle than grade a story during the short time where I had the ability to do either.

During times where I've been very active in grading/curating/reffing, I've never felt that the pay scale was unfair. And yet, it's not a very good motivator either.

There may be other ways to "increase" pay by pulling levers other than the salary number. For example, we could give professionals a blanket discount on all Mart goods if they graded/curated/reffed X number of stories/artworks/battles in the past month. Of course, this requires tracking, etc.

 

I think the difference between refs and graders/curators isn't so much the time involved as it is the effort. As someone who has been all three, typing out a review is more mentally exhausting than punching in numbers and clicking. It's so much easier to get burned out - and this is coming from someone who loves to write. There's a reason that those professions aren't as coveted as reffing; they resemble schoolwork and not game-play, which is why I think it calls for higher pay.

Also, thanks for the discussion and additional ideas, peeps. A Mart discount might not be a bad alternative, but I'm not really sure how much different of an effect that would have to motivate.

 

What is the difference between a Mart discount and flat out giving them more money

 

A Mart discount encourages continuous activity, right now. If you've got a 10% Mart discount for the month, that means you have to spend your money this month to get the extra value. But if you're active, you can keep getting money from every source--reffing, grading, curating, battling, coordinating--and all of it benefits from the discount. The more active you are over that month, the more it's worth.

If you just give a flat bonus, say, $10,000, then the ref/grader/etc. can take their money and they get the same value from it whether they use it now or go inactive and use it in six months.

 

Is it not still the same thing? If the bonus only lasts a month, I would have to be active during that month to get more money. If the Mart Discount lasts only a month, I would still have to be really active in just that month. I'm not against the idea at all it just seems like it's basically been done under a different name.

 

A discount is more consolidated. If you want to give someone a bonus on all of their activity, then it has to be tracked in a number of places. Every ref/judge has to track it in every log, graders/curators have to track it for every cash submission. If you get a 10% bonus for the month of December as part of your ref wages on December 1st, then anyone who puts together wages for every other occupation on December 15th and December 29th has to know about it.

Seems like a Mart discount would be much easier.

Me: "Here's a link to my discount coupon for December. I get 10% off all of this. I even did the math for you."
Official: "Yup."
Me: "Cool."

 

What would incentivize your activity in your profession, if it's not a wage increase or anything monetary-related?

For people who don't have URPG professions - what makes you want to apply to a leadership position? What's stopping you from applying?

I'm on board with the idea of a monetary benefit like a discount. It won't affect me because I've never been at URPG for the mart / battling purposes, but I think we need to come up with a new way of thinking about URPG leadership. a new way to incentivize and motivate all of us to do awesome things together. feels like there's currently a deeper problem at hand that we need to get to.

 

Late to this, but people (myself included) have always been so cautious when it comes to bumping pay. I see no reason why curating can't just have a flat rate of say 2k for really basic summaries that can go much higher just like grading if someone puts in the effort. A flat rate of even 5k or whatever isn't going to break this system so definitely worth giving a bump even for the time being.

Don't agree about grading mind you. There is a lot of money to be made their as has been seen time and time again. Yes it is mentally draining and few can consistently give extensive grades regularly but it's still possible to hit 100k+ if you really push yourself like reffing. Yes, reffing is not hard but it's so mind-numbing when the battles aren't interesting (90% easy).

 

Alrighty so this thread has been going on for a while and I'd like to thank all of ya for the great input. Nows the time to take some action before the discussion gets too stale, plus I think gen 7 implementation would be a good time to introduce other changes as well.

Curators

From looking over this thread, it looks like everyone is in agreement that curator wages could use a bump. We've also had a lot of discussion as to what this bump should be:
1) Mart discount/other bonus for every x amount of quality curations
2) Flat rate of pay of ~4K
3) General wage increase
Ultimately, this is up to @WinterVines; whenever she has time. As always we trust her judgement.

Rangers

Ranger pay has not yet reached any consensus in this thread. To be perfectly honest, Park is not currently active enough to be able to properly gauge any sort of pay changes. Hopefully Magik and Felly can turn this around so we can get a better feel for what needs to be done. This would probably be better off as its own thread.

Graders

Again I haven't seen any consensus about grader wages. I'm getting the vibe that curator wages are currently lower and should be caught up? Honestly could use some clarification on what we think about current wages for graders. I haven't seen much dissent about what they currently are but maybe im missing something.

Refs
Poop emoji tbh

 

Honestly, prior to Magik's becoming a ranger, I was the only ranger. I haven't been paid in months, and I had no intention of paying myself until someone else became a ranger or Winter came back, whichever came first.

Am I for or against an increase in ranger wages? I feel I may be too biased for that because I've gone so long without pay. I've been pondering how to respond to this thread, and I don't think I've ever really had a proper response for the question. I don't want to say "hell yeah, raise ranger wages" because then I come off as biased.

I also think Winter had asked me a while ago whether or not I thought ranger wages needed to be raised, and as the only really active ranger, I wasn't really bothered by it because I'm not too worked up over pay; I get what I deserve, and I get it when someone is available to do wages.

I do agree with Swifty in that park is far too inactive right now to determine whether or not it needs a pay increase. I also think the final decision in raising ranger pay lies with Winter. When things in the park get more active (and I think they will soon), then I would be happy to open up the discussion about increasing ranger pay. For now, I think the discussion should be put on hold and reopened at a later time.

As for grader wages, I honestly think those are fine as is. Crappy grade gets crappy pay, great grade gets great pay. I think the same should apply to curator wages though as just from looking at those curations, they can get pretty lengthy.

 

Rangers just got a pay bump, and I give bonuses for extra effort.

Curators are getting a pay bump as previously decided a little while ago. Also ditto for above @ extra bonuses.