The StArt Mart: Creative Cash

About a month or two ago I began to discuss this idea with Hannah, then smoothed out some of the rough ideas with monbrey later. It coincidentally became pretty relevant to the discussion of improving the RP aspect of URPG--to the point where similar ideas are being thought of. I did put a lot of thought into this, and would really appreciate the feedback! The main points of including this are threefold:

1. To increase creativity in Art, Story, and other sections! No more just writing for Pokemon! You can write about a wide variety of topics as long as it relates to the Pokemon universe in some way.

2. To provide an alternate way to build your team. With this implemented you wouldn't be forced to battle to get EMs, items, or even new Pokemon.

3. To build upon the creative/RP aspect of URPG and attract more people to it. Finally rewards people for that extra creativity and encourages it even more!

That being said, the idea still needs some work. This has been in Staff Boards for a while now, and it was suggested that I post it here too. Please read over and tell me what you think! =] (btw this is c/p'd from the post in Staff Boards)

Spoiler

First and foremost, 1 Point will roughly = $100. This number is a bit arbitrary, but it seems to be working for our purposes so far.

It was brought up that including Pokemon in the StArt Mart wouldn't work because the whole point of drawing and writing is to obtain Pokemon in the first place. That being said, I think that part of what would make having a new Mart worthwhile would be a new opportunity to earn Pokemon in a unique way. The selection of Pokemon in the StArt Mart would also set it apart from Berry Store or regular Mart. To make the reward for a good submission more realistic, however, I came up with a system in which the artist or author could choose for themselves what type of reward to receive for their efforts.

Pokemon Submission: These would be fairly simple. Choosing to submit artwork or a Story to catch a Pokemon would work the same way it did before. The only way to earn Points for use in the StArt Mart from this would be if you went above and beyond the rank of Pokemon you were aiming for. At the curator or grader's discretion, up to 10 Points (extra points if art) may be awarded for exemplary submissions that have the goal of catching a Pokemon. Everything else about drawing or writing for a Pokemon would be the same.

Points Submission: These submissions have the goal of earning as many Points (no more than 100 per submission) as possible. This is where creativity can really shine. For example, someone may submit a story about N's travels after leaving Unova on Reshiram / Zekrom, or someone else might draw a picture of Prism Tower in Lumiose City. Alternatively, someone could draw or write about a Pokemon and simply state that they are making a submission for Points rather than to capture the Pokemon. The Curator or Grader would then award an amount of Points based on the quality of work. Graders would only apply scores to these types of submissions. Monbrey and I both recognized several points of abuse that could come with these types of submissions, and collaborated a few ways to prevent them.
First, a Points Submission must earn at least 40 Points in order for any to be claimed. This will ensure quality work and not just a bunch of randomness with the hopes of receiving easy Points. If an artist or author feels that they could revise their work for more Points, then they may do so for only up to (10?) more.
Second, (and this is to less to avoid abuse and more to structure the system of awarding Points) several categories would be presented from which the Grader or Curator may choose when considering a Points Submission based on what the work entails. Each category would be worth a certain amount of Points adding up to a total of 100 possible. Examples for categories in Art could be color, shading, lines, accuracy etc.; while Stories could have categories like Character Development, Setting, Grammar, Climax etc. I would leave the value of each category and the ones included up to Hannah and Monbrey since they could probably do a better job of considering what's most important than I could.

With all this being said, it seems that the only main issues left to consider are the categories and, of course, what exactly the StArt Mart should contain besides Porygon and Rotom because they're definitely going in there. Making Points an alternative to paying URPG money for certain TMs and items will certainly appeal to many, while the Pokemon selection (once chosen and balanced out) will entice people to use the StArt Mart in general for things they cannot get elsewhere.

Thank you all for taking the time to read and consider my idea! Sorry it's pretty long-winded...If you have any questions that Monbrey and Hannah can't answer or if when somebody finds something that is unclear, feel free to PM me or hit me up on AIM and I'll try my best to explain it better! Also feel free to suggest any ideas to us that you think may help improve the idea!

Afterthoughts:

After some thinking I think it would be beneficial to expand potential sources for creative points. We could have points be earned in Park, Boss Battles, campaigns etc.
I also think that maybe the StArt Mart could include almost the exact same things as the regular mart; with some possible add-ons such as items for Park or maybe a few exclusive Pokemon.

 

I like this. It's a simple way to integrate creativity right away in URPG. While I love @BlueTowel; 's and @Smiles; 's ideas, THIS one seems more realistic and easier to maintain. The other ideas may come later, but I am all for this one. I've always wondered why we didn't have a system in place where I could draw something, anything I wanted, and so long as it's something I put my heart into, I'd get something out of it. I really like this a lot.

Smiles and BlueTowel; your ideas should not be given up on. Rather, I think this simplistic and easy to understand idea should be your stepping stone. Perhaps more can come with this if it is implemented.

 

Honestly, I really think this is a bad idea. It seems really ephemeral to me and the entire concept begins on the notion that there is some way to say that 1 point has a monetary value (aka shaky). There's an illusion that we have a pre-existing basis to a concept like this, but in reality it is quite different.

In my experience, the reason that grading and curating work is because it ISNT on a scale, really. In grades, it is either pass or fail. Cut and dry whether or not the grader thinks you DESERVE the Pokemon for the product you created based on a preconceived notion of approximately how much a combination effort/skill/talent/time the Pokemon should take from the author in order to be rewarded. The guidelines are definitely loose, but at least the reward is pretty focused.

Curations have a sort of similar process going on, but they masquerade behind these numbers that we give out. The #s we give as curations are truly arbitrary though, take a look at some curations (especially passing ones) and you'll see what I mean. More often than not we don't really associate the #s of a curation with anything. There's no meaning to a piece of work getting a 40 because it is not a ratio in any way. For example, we aren't saying that the piece of work was a 40%, as in that percentage of the art worked and the other 60 didn't. So in reality, curations are in the same boat as grades, except for that curators "sort of" use numbers to express how closely/far away a curation passed/failed, however, it's really otherwise meaningless and totally relative for each curator (and even each curation).

So that's where this idea really contrasts heavily. Giving a numbered value to a piece is an extremely difficult task. Think about this scenario to depict what I'm talking about: Fawkes submits a piece of really great artwork of a Magikarp. Definitely more than enough to pass an Easiest level Pokemon. He has background, he has color, he has everything you could ask for. Now it's super easy to say that he completed the level of difficulty for a Magikarp and pass him. If you asked 100 members (i wish there were 100 members ; of URPG a 100 of them would say the piece passed. However, now you're giving them a MUCH larger range to base their decision on. For the purposes of this example, we'll say the StArt Mart scales on a 100 point, like a test. I guarantee you that same 100 members would create a huge scatterplot of x/100's. Art and stories are too difficult to quantify this way on such a huge scale. And while at first this might seem trivial, you're talking about potential differences of 50 to a 100, which would be 5k, which is a lot in URPG.

Furthermore, this seems totally exploitable in a quantity perspective. Think of the user who constantly churns out 15 minute doodle of a Pokemon to net him 10/100 (which is pretty low, most curations don't get this low). That's a free 1k for 15 minutes of work.

Overall, I think getting money through other ways than battling is not a bad idea, but I think quantifying Art/Stories is not really the way to do it. Story/Art deals are a great part of the URPG, in my opinion, and if other parts of the URPG were built upon (bringing newer members in who want Medium/Simple Pokemon a lot of vets already have, getting other ways to obtain cash, etc) then there would be a higher availability for these sorts of trades, which would essentially create what you want to create, without having to do anything new. Plus, honestly it's not as though there isn't a need for Medium/Hard Pokemon currently. Maybe authors/artists should just start actually pursuing this option more than they already are. Unless, you only want to focus on getting smaller deals, in which case this just seems like a get rich quick scheme, which is also dumb.

P.S. This in no way helps the battling focused mindset of the URPG, and if anything it only contributes more to it. You're writing stories for money, which is really only useful for four things: buying more Pokemon, using it for the Park, buying items, and buying EMs. The first two of those things are redundant as all hell because you might as well be writing for the Pokemon you want in the story. And the other two things are only useful in a battling atmosphere. By connecting Stories/Art directly to Money (which is essentially a part of the Battling section) you're just pushing the Story/Art section closer to the Battling.

 

I think Smores missed this.

Also, while I am not a curator and cannot say for sure, but maybe the way you determine points for a curation isn't the same as every other curator does. For example, maybe there exists a curator out there who breaks down the 100 points into a variety of categories and awards them based on how well was done in that particular category. I think it would be nice, especially for art, to allow things like pictures of places, humans, or legends from the Pokémon world and I'm totally not biased from having N and Victini art. One thing that's probably important to consider is that say Porygon is available in this StArt Mart. It requires 75 points to pass an art piece for Porygon. It should cost more to have to build up to it from a bunch of lesser pieces. Possibly more on this when it's not 3 AM. But when do I ever post when it's not 3 AM?

 

Mobile, so quoting is more trouble than it's worth, but @Ash K.; regarding the Porygon example, pretty sure Swifty said in OP that buying Pokemon from the StArt Mart is redundant and therefore not an option. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm having issues wrapping my idea around how this will be evaluated, though, and I agree with Smores. I don't curate, but I know that grading can be pretty difficult at times--there have been several stories in my experience this far (and I've graded less than thirty iirc) that I've been on the fence and agonizing over regarding the verdict. This was for one verdict, with pre -set requisites and obvious groundwork for what a pass/fail is.

Assigning a number of how good I think a story is sounds terrifying. I don't even think it's possible. And, most importantly, I don't think any grader will give exactly as many points as the next grader. I know I'm a stickler and an ass when it comes to grading, so I'll probably give less points for a story than a different grader would give for the exact same story. This will basically cause everyone who writes stories to hate me and request that a more generous grader evaluate their stories so they get more points.

Also, I still see this as endgaming to battling, as Smores also already said. Art/Writing to TM's/battling, basically.

Still, I like the idea of being able to write for cash, if only because it can probably be abused to massive levels to get tons of cash. Perhaps have the writer/artist state how many points they're going for (no less than forty or whatever limit you mentioned earlier) when they submit the piece, and then have the grader evaluate accordingly?

Also idk if there should be an upper limit for points or something because that would discourage longer/more complex works. But I could totally see myself writing a novel and making one trillion dollars off of it.

 

I feel like writing for cash/ems/whatever could be a great addition, but I don't think this is quite it, sorry. I really can't see giving a grade or numerical result to a story. They made lots of typos but it was strong otherwise, so what would they get? I just can't see it working out like that since writing is just so subjective (write yourself what you consider a really powerful short story and give to multiple english teachers, see how much it varies). The only way I can see this working is writing for a specific amount of cash/points/whatever. Like say I want 40-60 points, the grader decides it's pass-worthy but not quite perfect, so they could give a 50. That way could work possibly. I think it needs to be put into a "pass or fail" scenario and then if passed the grader selects from a narrow range. Even then that's still really meh imo.

Say I write a story that would be good enough to pass a Hard rank story, does that equate to 20,000-30,000? This rules out people doing story deals I guess but they never really follow through anyway.

But, my main problem with this arises when you realise it's just another means for the battling system. What we need more is some kind of reward system that doesn't transfer as EMs or items. Remember the library and that story gem system that kind of started?

 

I hear what everyone above me is saying and I do agree that this plan has some flaws, but it's at least easy and viable with the system we have NOW with URPG. A different plan to set up a creative rewards route will take much longer when it doesn't involve battles, as URPG is battle-centric at the moment.

And we can do a pass/fail if we so wish; depending on the rank you specify that you're going for, it could be a set amount of points (i.e., easiest gets a point, going up one at a time from there). Or, instead of cash, we can have it so you can draw or write for EMs; you just have to depict a Pokemon using the move. I don't think this idea needs to be shot down yet. I think it can be built on or gone around, especially since there are experienced members like Elamite and Monbrey to figure out how it can be exploited.

 

I definitely think this idea has potential, but it does need some work. Writing for money/EMs has always interested me for a long time because Battling shouldn't be the only way we can get those things when we have so many other creative options--case in point, Berry Store allows users to get Berries that can also be used in battling. I wouldn't be adverse to connecting this to the Park--having maybe a system of credits sort of like Contests that are usable just as money is but expanding to the Mart, Park Shop, and Berry Store. It wouldn't be too difficult to assign "points" or "credits" to the items there.

With this StArt Mart idea, I don't think Pokemon should be available at all. We have four other methods of obtaining Pokemon already. I think focusing in on the money/EM aspect would help a lot of people out.

As far as the point assigning goes, I hate it. I pretty much disregard points when I curate. I think it's way too hard to assign a value to someone's hard work. Instead, I decide if it passes or fails, look at the points required, and adjust the score accordingly if I think they did above or below the minimum. I can't imagine doing this to stories at all. However, this idea can still work.

What about a category ranking system like we have in stories? Easiest, Simple, Medium, etc. I think placing a piece of art or story into one of those categories is something current curators and graders could do because we already do that. Then, those ranks could be assigned a points value, etc etc. The cost of EMs or money alternative could be steeper to offset people who spam art or stories.

That being said, I don't think the "40" minimum is a good idea, considering that's about the level of a Medium art or story. People do simpler things all the time and often don't want to shoot that high if they're just starting out. I know this is also true for me, but sometimes I just want to write a little story about my Ranger character or a random occurrence from the FFA and I don't want to make it a longer one with a target mon and complex plot and all that. I know some others feel this way too, and it would be nice to have a creative outlet with a place for that kind of stuff--since it's connected to URPG, I don't really want to post it elsewhere where the characters and events are foreign to the main audience. I feel that's one of the strong suits of why I stay in URPG currently--it provides a creative outlet when I don't work on original stuff. When I want to practice new techniques or have an idea I can't seem to get rid of but don't have a whole story for.

Obviously this idea isn't going to happen overnight, but I think it would be something feasible and fairly simple to implement.

 

Yoooo, I'm totally in agreement with this right here. We already have enough ways, two of which are straight up buying them. We don't need to add a third way to buy a different set of 'mons. Like, if anything, it should be just the Pokemon that are already in The Pokemart and The Berry Store, because it would just be an alternate means of purchasing them. Even then I'd still be sketchy with that idea because people would forget about Contests even more than it already has been forgotten.

 

Had to work all day, but I'm finally up for addressing these posts and I have some ideas that I think could help. I'd like to add something to this that would really aid with the very real issue of quantifying Stories/Art. Before I suggest it though, I do want to point out the separation between writing/drawing for Pokemon, and writing/drawing for points which seems to have been ignored for the most part. If you write or draw for a Pokemon, it would be curated or graded differently than if you were submitting it for points. Additionally, a Point earned and kept is not the same as a point towards catching a Pokemon.

Now to aid in the issue of quantifying Art/Stories (also bear in mind this only applies to points submissions) I propose that Ranks be given. Each Rank would be assigned a point value, and earning a certain Rank would award you with that amount of Points. We could have Ranks of E, D, C, B, A, and S. The Ranks names themselves could also be tweaked a bit to avoid giving graders or curators the difficult task of assigning what looks like a poor score to someone. If this is an issue, we could always make Ranks start from C being the lowest and have HS (Highly Superior), and NP (Nearly Perfect) Ranks for the best of best submissions.

Smores:

Spoiler

Ash: (Also, I think everyone should read this because I make an important note here.)

Spoiler

I think that, after the feedback I'm hearing, I'm going to withdraw the idea of including Pokemon at all in the StArt Mart. However, like I said to smores, a 75 for a Capture Submission (wanting a Pokemon) equates to only 7.5K in a Points submission (wanting Points, but not a Pokemon), which would definitely not be enough for a Porygon. Either way, the score would probably not be the same for both types of entry.

Ely:

Spoiler

Syn:

Spoiler

Winter:

Spoiler

I sincerely thank everyone for their input! I really think this system is possible and has potential. It needs plenty of work, but I truly believe that it isn't unfeasible. I'll keep checking back to discuss and improve! =]

EDIT: lol the bit in the OP about Rotom and Porygon going in the store was meant to be struck out. Guess it got changed during he c/p.

 

Okay, real quick because this is going to sound rude and I don't want to focus on it any longer than I have to, but pulling rank here for a second. So far, everyone who has posted in this thread saying that it's probably going to be difficult to put a concrete number on a story is a grader (Synthesis, Winter, me). Everyone who has posted in this thread saying it's probably not going to be too bad or "as bad as I think" or whatever, uh, isn't a grader. I don't want to sound like an elitist ass or something, but in this case I think that the opinions of the people who are going to be in charge of having to deal with this are critically important in this case.

Um. Okay. I don't want to linger on that any more than we need to, but I think it needs to be said. ilu swifty (and people who are not swifty) <3

OKAY SO PRODUCTIVE IDEAS.

I kind of like the idea of tying the EM's you get to pre-established ranks. So, like, say Bob wrote a story for a Pidgey (Simple Rank). Arbitrary number for length shall be fifteen thousand characters. (And, yes, before we say it, I know that length isn't the defining factor in stories, but it's also the only quantitative one I can think of, and a lot of writers these days tend to focus on the character limits anyway). So, theoretically, Bob has a good five to ten thousand "extra" characters that he decides to put to use in the StArt Mart. In this case, he would post the story, and the endnote/capture would look something like this:

The story would then be assessed as if it were attempting to capture two Simple-Ranked Pokemon, the Pidgey and the EM Case. Perhaps they both pass, in which case Bob gets his Pidgey and his EM's, or perhaps only one passes, in which case he only gets the Pidgey or the EM Case. We could define EM Case "ranks" kind of like below (I based the numbers on each TM being about $4,000, and there seems to be a $1 = one character conversion in story deals, so we'll stick with that; I also used kind of average character count suggestions as a guideline):

The EM Cases come in all-or-nothing variants: like a Pokemon capture, you will either get the EM Case (all EM's for that rank) or you will fail to get it (no EM's).

Some stipulations to deal with loopholes that I thought of/other arguments (I probably didn't cover everything):
=Yes, it's kind of based on characters and I'm not keen on this, but if we count the EM case as another Pokemon of the equivalent rank, I think that there's enough of a quality-control measure in there and it's not just senselessly handing out EM's. Again, if someone wants to tack on a Complex EM Case to their story that is also for a Complex Pokemon, the story would essentially have to be good enough to capture two Complex Rank Pokemon.
=Some sort of numerical limit for the number of EM Cases per story--as in, writing for two Medium EM Cases would actually have more profit than writing for a Hard one, even though the excess characters used would kind of be the same. I think that having only one EM Case attempt per story would probably alleviate this best, although I could see a rollover system as cutting out abuse (like, you can have more than one EM Case, but you have to write up to a Demanding EM Case before you can write for a second one in the same story. So, like, if you had sixty thousand characters and you thought you had enough quality, you could try to capture a Demanding/Hard, but not a Demanding/Medium or Hard/Hard/Hard, or six Mediums BUT THIS IS REALLY COMPLICATED SO WE MIGHT JUST WANT TO LIMIT IT TO ONE PER STORY; I DON'T THINK PEOPLE GO THAAAAAT ABOVE AND BEYOND)
=The EM's would have some sort of limit on them as well (ie seven Protects is worth a ton more than seven Taunts). I'm thinking that EM's can only be used on one Pokemon, maybe, if people are really afraid of abuse there? Or, solved better and more elegantly with the below:
=The EM's have to have some degree of involvement in the story and have to go to the Pokemon with which they are involved, so if you're really going to have seven different Pokemon using Protect and the grader doesn't see this as stupidly forced, sure, you can do that.
=I have no idea how an Art analog would work due to the lack of multiple captures.
=there is probably other stuff

...maybe?

 

I think there is a very simple solution that has been mentioned already:

Each Pokemon rank can reward a predetermined amount of money instead of a Pokemon. If your story (or other media) passes, you receive that money.

 

I think this is a good place to start. I kind of forgot about this because it became very complicated, so a simple solution like this is fine in my opinion. The only thing it doesnt address is allowing people to create artwork and write about things other than specific pokemon, but that really isn't a big deal and there isn't as much demand for it as I once thought.

I do still wonder, however, how Park posts could also possibly yield a cash gain rather than Pokemon if the Trainer so chooses.

 

Well, under this system, perhaps Art and Story entries don't need to focus on a single Pokemon. They just need to meet a certain standard.

Also here is the proposed amounts as discussed with Swift. It might need to be modified.

Easiest – New to the URPG stories? This is a good level to aim for if you are unsure of your writing abilities. Very simple storyline, minimum detail and battle, and only about 3,000 – 5,000 characters are needed for a successful capture, but there isn’t a very wide selection of Pokémon to choose from this list.

Simple – $5,000
Medium – $10,000
Hard – $15,000
Complex – $20,000
Demanding – $25,000
Merciless - $30,000
Stupefying - $35,000

 

I think the values were all pushed down one due to easiest being left out, but yeah those looks about right to me otherwise.